NETEACH-L: MOO SESSION LOGS

SESSION 14-A

High Tech for Low Levels

NETEACH Nook
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A spacious classroom with a comfortable, lived-in feeling to it. Someone has put up at least one nice decoration: a world map with brightly colored push pins showing where NETEACHers have connected from. So far, there are pins in Japan, Korea, Hong Kong, Australia, Greece, UK, Brazil, Israel, Canada, France, Germany, and all over the US.
You see Teacher's Desk, Big Table, Bulletin Board, Beanbags, Fireside Bearskin, Kitchen Table, Wading Pool, and Hot Tub.
You see LCD Panel.
You see Markus, Mehitabel, Colega, Yojimbo, Gregor, Yoshi, lyda [Guest], Ron, and Dingess [Guest] standing about.
Obvious exits: out

Gregor says, "Let's get started, shall we?"
Yoshi says, "OK."
Mehitabel nods.
Markus [to Gregor]: Yep
Gregor has just turned on LCD Panel.
Maybe he has something to show you. Pay attention to the screen. (LOOK lcd).
Dingess [Guest] says, "Yes, I am an ESL teacher and director of our CALL Lab."
Flemmex whooshes in like a..um...whooshing...thing.
Gregor seems to be preparing some material for OHP now.

Gregor is going to display something new on the screen...

On the screen you see...

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Welcome to NETEACH-L's MOO discussion sessions!

(with much appreciation to schMOOze University
and its fine players, programmers, and wizards!)

Please note! Our sessions are always logged.
By participating, you give permission to Greg Younger to allow
access to the transcripts for research purposes at his discretion.
Before using any part of our logs for research or publication, please
obtain the permission of Greg Younger at youngerg@colorado.edu

For a transcript, please see our web page:
http://spot.colorado.edu/~youngerg/netmoo.html

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Flemmex says, "Hi"
Markus hugs Flemmex with a warm and loving embrace.
Gregor greets Mex.
Markus [to Flemmex]: Hey!
Mehitabel says, "Hi, mex."
Yoshi waves to Mex.
Flemmex grins, hugs, his and stuff

Gregor is going to display something new on the screen...

On the screen you see...
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*** INTRODUCTIONS ***

You are of course welcome to remain anonymous, but at this time
we invite all of you who wish to do so to identify yourselves by
your name and affiliation.

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Colega [to Flemmex]: Are you *the* Mex?
Markus grins at Colega and raises an eyebrow.
Flemmex says, "I am e."
Gregor is really Greg Younger from the Economics Institute in Boulder, Colorado, USA.
Markus smiles at Flemmex widely.
Flemmex bows, spivaklike to Colega
Colega bows deeply to Flemmex.
Markus is Markus J. Weininger from UFSC, Brazil
Colega [to Flemmex]: Tell us who you are.
Yoshi is an EFL teacher/CALL lab manager at Kisarazu National College of Technology in Japan.
Flemmex is Mex Butler of community education in Australia
Ron says, "Ron is Ron Corio from Virginia Commonwealth University"
Mehitabel is Julie Falsetti of Hunter COllege in New York City.
Dingess [Guest] says, "Hello, my name is Tracy Dingess. I am an instructor of ESL at West Virginia University. I also direct the operations of our Computer Assisted Language Learning Laboratory"
Colega is Lonnie Turbee from Syracuse Language Systems and Syracuse University, Guess-What-City, New York, USA
Yojimbo says, "I'm Michael Glass . I teach at sogang University Korea."
Gregor [to Colega]: Rochester? :o)
Gregor ducks.
Colega grins.
Markus smiles sweetly.
Gregor [to lyda [Guest]]: Still with us?
Colega says, "Pleased to meet you all!"
lyda [Guest] says, "yes, I think"
Flemmex says, "Likewise."
Dingess [Guest] says, "Likewise, Colega."
lyda [Guest] says, "Perhaps I'll lurk until I get the hang of things"
Gregor says, "Well, I don't know if you all saw my VERY recent announcement on NETEACH (like about an hour ago)... Colega is going to guest-host our session here today/tonight."
Yojimbo [to lyda [Guest]]: that could take years.

Gregor is going to display something new on the screen...

On the screen you see...

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***High-Tech for Low Levels***

The Internet provides lots of opportunities for advanced ESOL students to
do research and interact with native speakers and other learners, to their
great benefit. Clearly, bringing lower level students online requires some
preparation and carefully chosen tasks and objectives. In this session, we
will discuss useful attitudes, approaches, and activities for low-level
English learners on the Internet.

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Markus applaudes!
Ron awaits for MOO wisdom from Colega.
Markus . o O ( great! )
Colega giggles at Ron.
Mr.C is going to try to join you.
Colega says, "MOO wisdom, eh? I see reference to the Internet."
Mr.C has arrived.
lyda [Guest] says, "Mr C?"
Gregor expects not just MOO wisdom, but pointers on life, the universe, and everything from Colega! ;o)
Colega says, "It's a big place! How much of it would we like to deal with? Perhaps start with a few stories?"
Flemmex says, "Hi Jeff."
Mr.C [to lyda [Guest]]: Hi
lyda [Guest] says, "Hi"
Gregor howdies Mr. C.
Colega says, "Who has had success in using an Internet application with novice level learners?"
Mr.C [to Flemmex]: Hi... I'm about to teach a night class on Microsoft, but I thought I would stop by to see what is going on.
Colega waves to Mr. C.
Yojimbo [to Colega]: what do you mean success?
lyda [Guest] says, "I've found the Internet Journal's ESL activities page useful"
Colega is particularly interested in the use of virtual communities, such as listservs, chat environments, and MOOs.
Flemmex has done a certain amount ( or perhaps an uncertain amount...)
Mehitabel says, "How many of you are finding people who think the Internet = the Web?"
Mr.C [to Colega]: I have... but it's using an FO from Diversity University that isn't available here (yet).
Yojimbo says, "me 2"
Mr.C [to Mehitabel]: About 95%
Ron can't stay long tonight but will be looking for the logs of this discussion.
Dingess [Guest] says, "Following the thread from this weeks past postings, machine and net skills seem to be an issue with beginning students. What can we do to ease the in-training?"
Gregor [to Ron]: It'll be up soon.
Colega [to Mr.C]: C Tell us about that feature object, please.
Ron [to Mehitabel]: Yeah! Internet = Web
Flemmex says, "My low levels don't know WHAT it is .... "
Ron [to Mehitabel]: And with some good reason.
Markus, who actually is a teacher of german, has experience with teachers he brought in here at different occasions, some *very* low english proficiency, most of them very little computer literacy...
Dingess [Guest] says, "My focus being not on language the first few sessions but on technique."
Gregor says, "They don't have to know what it is... half the fun is talking to them enough that they eventually get some conceptual idea of how it works. I think that not all of the language learning in using the Internet comes from the 'Net itself."
Markus nods at Dingess [Guest] to agree unconditionally.
Mr.C says, "There are actually several FOs there that are quite good. One is the tutor FO (#484)... it allows regulars to see when a guest has mistyped a command... and you can page them with what the correct command is. I am now trying to work to make it so that both regular characters and VSPOs (another FO that is very important) can also use it... so that help will be ongoing."
Ron says, "Many people only connect to the Internet through the Web."
lyda [Guest] says, "what are some arguments for getting "
lyda [Guest] says, "excuse me"
Colega listens to lyda
Gregor [to lyda [Guest]]: Just bust on in and keep typing... Chaotic conversation is just part of the deal here... don't wait for a turn! :o)
Markus smiles at Gregor seductively.
Mehitabel nods.
lyda [Guest] says, "sine many teachers want to use the internet, what are some arguments for getting time on the web with low-level ESL Ss?"
Flemmex says, "Markus put that fo away!"
Mr.C says, "The VSPO FO allows teachers to create characters for their students, and gives them virtual wiz powers over their students. Furthermore, if you connect through the DU WWW Interface... using Java... you can now *show WWW sites to characters* regardless of what room they are in... which will be tremendous for mentoring and distance learning."
Gregor blushes at Markus' advances.
Colega says, "Lyda is starting at the starting point, before teaching technology, before teaching language..."
Dingess [Guest] says, "Arguments for getting low levels on the net: build the skills as soon as possible and watch the acceleration of development throughout the student's career."
Mehitabel [to Mr.C]: schMOOze was never meant to be a classroom.
Colega says, "It's getting access in the first place."
Gregor [to lyda [Guest]]: One is that instruction to get them started on the computer is just plain great input with a real purpose... it's authentic communication between the teacher and students rather than anything artificial.
Flemmex has reservations about teachers having lots of power over ss in MOO.
Pretty is going to try to join you.
Pretty has arrived.
Flemmex says, "Half the joy of MOO is that ss get a life of their won."
Markus [to all]: Re: Internet = Web... I just came from a conference where they were trying to tell us that in the near future computer = web... every user is part of an intra/extranet and all are internauts.
Mehitabel agrees with Flemmex.
Gregor agrees, and knows that Yoshi would pipe in if here were feeling better. ;o)
Flemmex says, "If I was going to be carted around and made to look at particular things, Iwouldn't moo"
Mehitabel says, "every NNS here is here voluntarily."
Colega [to Flemmex]: Good point. It's about who has power over the learning experience.
lyda [Guest] says, "yes"
Flemmex says, "Is Yoshi really sick now? Too sick to MOO? "
Dingess [Guest] says, "Tell your administration that early starts on electronic communication and machine skills will benefit students across diciplines. They need to become self-directed and independence in cyber communications will help them to do that."
Gregor [to all]: Do lower level students require less power over their learning experieince?
Colega says, "I think that this is the crucial point. The Internet is not just an electronic (and expensive) textbook."
Yoshi [to Flemmex]: Good enough to login but not totally feeling good enough to type a lot.
Yojimbo [to Met]: that's not entirely true. there was a whole bunch of Japanese students heher ethe other day. They wer doing homework asking the same questions. It was a tad tiresome.
Flemmex didn't see Yoshi here before and hands him a hug and a throat lozenge.
Mehitabel [to Yojimbo]: I think they were guests.
lyda [Guest] says, "In my experience using Aspects, time on-line was prized by all a meted out carefully."
Colega confesses to having foisted the question-for-homework thing on students. It bombed, especially among the tired MOO-user native speakers.
Yojimbo [to Meti]: that's right.
Dingess [Guest] says, "Less power? NO! they require the push from the teacher to help them find self direction and purpose. A learner at any level should feel that they are in control and have a plan."
Gregor [to Yojimbo]: One can only hope that it was an intro exercise and that their teacher has bolder plans for later visits.
Mehitabel hopes so too.
Mr.C says, "Class is about to start ... if anyone would like more info on how the WWW Interface works at DU... contact me (coops@value.net)"
Colega [to Dingess [Guest]]: A plan, before MOOing, is a very good idea. And if the learner has had considerable input into that plan, all the better. That includes assessment.
lyda [Guest] says, "good idea"
Gregor [to Mr.C]: Thanks!
Flemmex waves at Mr.C.
Colega waves to Mr. C. "Thanks!"
Mr.C will stay logged in till the last minute.
Colega says, "Follow-up afterwards is also very important. Talking it out in class."
Yoshi agrees with Colega.
lyda [Guest] says, "Transcripts can provide a way or many ways to revisit the conversation"
Gregor says, "Does anyone mind if I flash the topic on the screen once more to remind us what we're talking about?"
Yoshi says, "It makes more of what ss do here."
Yojimbo says, "Is this a regular meeting? I stumbled across it by accident."
Flemmex says, "I've just given a group a log of their session in MOO as reading homework."
Colega says, "If they get lost or confused or have a bad experience, they need a place to download that. Who on earth is going to listen to them talk about a guy they met who happened to be in Argentina?"
Gregor [to Yojimbo]: Yes, it is... I'll be glad to tell you about it later.
Yojimbo [to Gregor]: Please do.

Gregor is going to display something new on the screen...

On the screen you see...

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***High-Tech for Low Levels***

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Estimator slides in, ready to NETwork.
Yoshi [to Yojimbo]: Dealing with those basic level students can be boring sometimes, especially NS or SSs with better proficiency, but...
Colega says, "Let's start with attitudes!"
Yoshi says, "They have to be welcome to make most of this place for ss in any level of english."
Ron says, "I have to go folks. Nice seeing all of you."
Claire slides in, ready to NETwork.
Markus found that timid people with low linguistic proficiency who would hardly ever speak in a trad f2f classroom situation started to try out their knowledge in here, once thy understood the basic commands.
Flemmex nods.
Colega says, "What attitudes do we need in order to successfully use the Internet with our low-level learners?"
Flemmex waves at Ron.
Claire waves to all
Markus corrects a typo: they
Ron waves.
Dingess [Guest] says, "OK Flemmex and Colega, you are explaining ways of extending the use of the time on line into the classroom afterward, but what can we do, or how can we start lower level students with the media and equipment? Suggestions for the process of introduction and activities at language levels is what I would like to discuss."
Flemmex says, "Hey Claire!"
Colega waves to Claire.
Ron (Asleep) has disconnected.
Ron has disconnected.
Gregor ticks off Attitude. "So the best attitude is that a) low-level students NEED the power of self-direction and b) they can handle it. Is that a fair summary?
Yoshi says, "Hi, Claire."
lyda [Guest] says, "explain power of self-direction"
Gregor howdies and hugs Claire!
Colega [to Gregor]: Yes. They *can* be trusted to influence their own learning.
Flemmex says, "One thing I've been doing is haviong a single computer in a normal class"
Yoshi [to Gregor]: And much understanding from the society they're diving into.
Colega [to lyda [Guest]]: Give them many more places to make decisions about how the learning will take place.
Flemmex says, "With the single computer, I get most of the group doing work of some sort and get two or three around the comp doing something related but netty"
Dingess [Guest] says, "yes Gregor"
Shirley is going to try to join you.
Shirley has arrived.
Gregor [to lyda [Guest]]: By self direction I am referring to what Colega has said about teachers' losing control over what directions their students take once they are loose in cyberspace.
lyda [Guest] says, "has anyone tried simulations with lower levels"
Claire says, "I think students take more responsibility for their work when they feel that they have some options.""
Colega [to lyda [Guest]]: Interesting you mention that. In a way, MOO is one huge simulation.
Flemmex says, "The single computer in the class approach is good for bridging the fear of technology thing. this is with older long term residents who have very low L1 literacy skills"
Markus has the impression that a good thing about MOOing for beginners is that they have to rely on their poor English to make any type of communication possible, so the authenticy of virtual comMOOnication seems superior to classroom dialogues.
Dingess [Guest] says, "Claire, do you mean let 'em go but keep 'em on topic?"
Colega nods to Claire. "when they have designed at least part of it."
Gregor says, "I think "at least part of it" is an important phrase here..."
Colega [to Dingess [Guest]]: Who decides the topic? And why do they have to stay on it?
Markus nods at Gregor.
Gregor says, "My first forays onto the web with students turned out to be a bit pointless."
Dingess [Guest] says, "OK, goal then/"
Claire says, "No, not let them go. My own preference would be to limit the options somewhat. If we just let them go, maybe we're abdicating our responsibility. But that"
Colega [to Dingess [Guest]]: Yes, outcome.
Flemmex prefers the topic to come out of normal class negotiations
Claire says, "but that's the real kicker --how much freedom can they handle?"
Gregor says, "And how much chaos?"
Colega agrees with Flemmex, to a point.
Colega says, "Find out from them!"
Colega says, "Different classes will react differently."
Flemmex says, "Adult literacy allows for a lot of freedom in content"
Shirley has disconnected.
Mehitabel says, "What about the problems of students coming here and not participating?"
Dingess [Guest] says, "I found that given a goal and the tools, they often freeze at first. I wonder if it is from techno-fear or just fear from lack of guidance from the teacher?"
Flemmex [to Colega]: It means a lot of work for the teacher of course.
Estimator has disconnected.
Colega says, "Some members of a given class will do best with more structure, while other members of the same class will do best if allowed to go it alone."
Gregor [to Flemmex]: Depends on the goal of instruction. My Ss are here for intense and intensive preparation for US grad school. Theyaren't going to get to choose their topics in their further studies... it's more useful for them to be hjanded some parameters.
lyda [Guest] says, "this is notan easy medium to master"
The housekeeper arrives to cart Ron off to bed.
Claire says, "Mex, I read your message on NETEACH-L today. With the type of students you have, I'd think they should be determining the content to a great extent.""
Mr.C says, "One can't be sure that students aren't participating... sometimes (especially the shy ones), they are simply reading what others are saying... which in itself is a form of participation."
Flemmex [to Mehitabel]: I've had ss just sit and watch the screen scroll by for quite a while, but keep coming back.
Colega [to Flemmex]: Depends on how the teacher designs the whole project.
Flemmex nods at Colega.
Lone is going to try to join you.
Lone has arrived.
Markus makes each student choose a topic of their own, for web research projects, for example, to be sure they have a genuine personal interest in getting somewhere with it.
Colega [to Mr.C]: C And I don't think Krashen would call it "simply" reading! ;-)
Dingess [Guest] says, "good start Markus. Then what?"
Colega waves to Lone.
Mehitabel says, "Hi, LOne."
Gregor wants to pursue what Dingess said about "fear from lack of guidance"...
Lone says, "Hi, Mehitabel"
Markus [to Dingess [Guest]]: collect information and process it, write a paper
Colega says, "Those who are interested in the same topic could work cooperatively."
Lone says, "Hi, Colegaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa"
Gregor saluda a (oops, waves at) Lone.
Colega is very happy to see Lone after all this time.
Lone [to Gregor]: How are you?
Gregor [to Lone]: Fine, thanks, se~or! And you?
Mehitabel says, "I think the students need some type of guidance."
Flemmex [to Claire]: Exactly - it's the kind of students and the course that dictates the degree of latitude in planning the activities
Dingess [Guest] says, "But, markus, with beginning level students, how do you keep them moving and at what pace do you expect them to move?"
Mehitabel says, "More than CONNECT GUEST>"
Flemmex laughs.
Gregor giggles at Mehi.
Colega agrees with Mehi!
Flemmex says, "Much more!"
Colega says, "You work out a menu of options *with them*."
Mr.C [to Colega]: Sorry... I forgot there isn't anything simple about reading... especially for ESL students! Pardon my high affective filter!
Mehitabel says, "And a goal."
Claire says, "With mature students who have some understanding of what their goals are, I think the teacher still has plenty to do without calling all the shots! :-)"
Gregor says, "My students fear lack of guidance, evenat a higher level than we're discussing tonight."
Colega says, "Let them choose from a menu of activities that they have helped to create."
Markus has a URL with examples of a project he did with a class for those of you who read german: http://www.humanas.ufpr.br/delem/deutsch/projekt.htm
Dingess [Guest] says, "Yes Colega, this should help to reduce fear and filters."
Colega says, "so everyone goes in armed with something to do."
Markus says, "very important for the whole thing was the fact that the results of their work would get 'published' on the web."
Dingess [Guest] says, "oops, i mean self-monitoring."
Flemmex says, "So what people are saying is that - like outside the MOO and the net - we can't talk about what "students" need but about what particular *kinds* of studnets need."
Colega says, "But they are invested in it."
The housekeeper arrives to cart Shirley off to bed.
The housekeeper arrives to cart Estimator off to bed.
Gregor [to Flemmex]: I don't get that...
Flemmex says, "Low level is still a huge group"
Flemmex says, "they have hugely varying needs and aspirations."
Colega [to Flemmex]: It's a matter of designing the designing of the course so that each individual learner has input into how the learning takes place.
Mehitabel says, "Mine have similar goals."
Flemmex says, "My close to retirement age long term residents are totally different from a group of new arrivals who might be tested at a similar level"
Gregor [to Flemmex]: That's for sure... and you and I, for instance, have a widely different idea of what a low level student is, based on our teaching settings.
Colega [to Mehitabel]: Yes, some classes are quite homegenous. Others are full of wildly different needs and aspirations.
Markus nods at Gregor to demonstrate support.
Lone goes home.
lyda [Guest] has disconnected.
A campus caretaker arrives, and escorts lyda [Guest] to bed.
Flemmex says, "Older people thinking about retiring aren't in the same boat as a young person just beginning their working life"
Mehitabel says, "Most definitely not."
Dingess [Guest] says, "But, back to the first position or question: What kinds of activities are better suited to lower level students to insure that they begin building and not blocking?"
Flemmex says, "But they might have the same "level""
Colega says, "So the topics they want to investigate or talk about will be quite different!"
Gregor adds, "or a middle aged manager of a big electronics firm.
Flemmex nods.
Flemmex says, "I think even the approaches - the ways of introducing the technology can be different"
Colega says, "I think that there has to be a foundation first, before answering that question, Dingess..."
Lone is going to try to join you.
Markus [to Dingess [Guest]]: let them produce relevant contents seems most important, in terms of motivation
Dingess [Guest] says, "Yes, can we follow that a bit?"
Lone has arrived.
Claire says, "sorry, I lost my connection"
Colega says, "... the teacher has to have a very good understanding of how virtual communities work. They have to use listservs and MOOs or whatever for quite awhile first."
Gregor says, "Is it worthwhile then to talk about "low level students" here at all? I think there must be some common threads we can find in attitudes, approaches, and activities for the 'Net."
Flemmex says, "Definitely Colega!"
Markus nods at Colega to show complete consent.
Yoshi nods to Colega.
Colega says, "Then and only then can they begin to understand what can be done in such environments."
Colega says, "They can relate their own stories. These places are all about stories!"
Mehitabel says, "But that is not happening."
Mehitabel says, "Re, the teacherrs."
Colega says, "And students will respond to that."
Gregor [to Mehitabel]: That's the case with CALL in general.
Flemmex says, "So professional development becomes a foundation requirement"
Yoshi [to Mehitabel]: I know, and that's the problem most of the time.
Colega [to Flemmex]: Absolutely.
Gregor says, "Most teachers want to know what software is good for ESL. They don't want to DO anything themselves."
Markus [to Gregor]: I did the same thing with a group of intermediate and real beginners, the difference was the amount of text produced, that's all.
Colega says, "The teacher can then offer a menu of options, but only once he/she knows what those options are."
Flemmex says, "Interesting. We came to talk aboutlow level students but now we're talking abou tlow level teachers :)"
Gregor grins at Mex.
Colega nods and grins.
Mehitabel [to Flemmex]: Yes, think that is true.
Markus [to Gregor]: the beginners made one page, the intermediate students 15
Lone goes home.
Colega says, "So there has to be good teacher training."
Flemmex says, "We're doing some interesting staff development stuff in Aus - well in Victoria really"
Gregor says, "It's important... I think we can agree that the teacher is crucial in the process."
Claire [to Gregor]: sometimes the question "what software is good" implies that the software will take over the teaching!
Colega groans.
Markus nods at Claire eagerly.
Yoshi [to Gregor]: Yes, even in so called learner centered situations.
Colega says, "It's not the danged software! It's the pedagogy!"
Colega sighs.
Dingess [Guest] says, "Yes, I am the only teacher in my institution, I think, who even has an idea about MOO's and Mud's."
Gregor [to Claire]: Exactly... and I think paradoxically that that is both the hope and the fear of a good many teadchers!
Flemmex says, "I started using the net through a program for introducing IT to adult lit and ESL providers"
Colega says, "It's all so silly. Technology doesn't replace teachers. .... y'all know the rest..."
Claire says, "people often ask me "what program is good for TEACHING grammar, listening, reading, etc. My answer is that computers and software can't teach anything. I know my answer is overstated, but I say it anyway. :-)"
Mehitabel says, "Some teaches fear it still."
Yojimbo [to coleaga]: tell that to admin!
Colega throws up hands in despair.
Claire says, "yeah, CALL is supposed to save teacher and staff time! what a laugh."
Flemmex laughs
Colega says, "No, but it sure can make their jobs more interesting!"
Gregor supplies it for Colega: "Computers won't replace teachers... teachers who use computers will replace teachers who don't!"
Dingess [Guest] says, "Colega, don't you mean frustrating?"
Colega says, "and it *can* provide a much more enriched learning experience for the language learner."
Flemmex says, "Here's a site about a good local project"
Claire says, "I just returned from a consulting trip to an unnamed university. the administration was getting ready to spend half a million DOLLARS on a CALL and ZERO for additional staff."
Flemmex says, "http://dingo.vut.edu.au/~alrnnv/lltt/lltt.html"
Colega [to Dingess [Guest]]: I'm afraid I'm beyond frustrated. But I keep seeing signs of hope. :-)
Claire coorects: on a CALL lab
Flemmex [to Claire]: Really? Eugh!
Colega practically swoons.
Mehitabel [to Claire]: That is not atypical.
Gregor [to Claire]: Yee gads... tell them to send the money to ME! I'd spend it right, I swear!
Mehitabel says, "And the one poor person who knows anything will be responsible."
Dingess [Guest] says, "This is my first semester using e-mail for daily journals in my advanced writing class. The change from the first hand written journals to the latest electronic versions is astounding in content, depth, and variety of language used."
Markus nods.
Yoshi can't agree more with Mehi.
Claire says, "I wrote a report explaining the duties of the SEVEN people they should hire. The faculty is grateful because now they might hire two people instead of none!"
Flemmex has noticed there's a big difference between those who teach computers and those who teach people how to use them.
Colega says, "Okay, for posterity then (heh heh, and not 'prosperity' as I said in my email today!).... teachers need to be trained! They need time to learn and develop new directions in the pedagogy! They need to be PAID!"
Colega guesses that *was* for prosperity!
Claire says, "Colega, what a concept! :-)"
Gregor [to Claire]: Thank god they got you as a consultant!
Mehitabel says, "That is the problem at my school. The teachers won't do anything if they don't get paid for it."
Colega nods to Dingess.
Colega knows of no other group so willing to do so much for so little compensation.
Claire says, "we're nuts, that's for sure."
Colega says, "It sure don't work that way in the commercial world!"
Markus [to Mehitabel]: as somebody mentioned before, they won't get paid at all if they don't start to do something soon.
Mehitabel says, "And I don't blame them. Some are teaching 33 hrs/week."
Flemmex turns into a walnut and sits in the corner.
Gregor says, "My colleagues are unwilling to make any progress unless they have good computers on their desks with which to practice what I teach them. I can see their point to some extent... still..."
Mehitabel [to Markus]: Not exactly true.
Colega [to Gregor]: Face it, we are bonkers.
Gregor spends a good deal of his day in the student lab since the computer on his desk is much older.
Mehitabel says, "The admin doesn't care either."
Flemmex has the red eyes to prove it.
Dingess [Guest] says, " I find the same situation in my school, Gregor"
Claire says, "I do too, Gregor, but if I had had to wait for any administration to give me technology, I wouldn't have a computer today."
Colega says, "I don't think the time constraints are the worst of it, though. I think it's a resistance to change, a resistance to deep thinking."
Flemmex [to Colega]: Really?
Mehitabel agrees.
Mehitabel says, "That is a factor too."
Dingess [Guest] says, "The path of least resistance is the syllabus that was typed up last year?"
Colega says, "Among many people who are actually quite bright, they seem afraid to think so deeply that their pre-conceived notions might be challenged to the point of having to get rid of them."
Flemmex [to Colega]: I know deep thinkers who are scared witless of the effort of taking on a new world. Good folks but over-committed already
Gregor nods at Dingess.
Mehitabel says, "10 years ago."
Claire says, "But our day is coming. Our skills will be valued. I am sure of it."
Flemmex [to Claire]: Will we still be able to type by them? Arthritis.... poor vision....
Mehitabel [to Claire]: THey are valued ($$$$) outside academia.
Markus [to Claire]: That's what I meant before...
Colega says, "Watch what is coming out at the ACTFL conference in November. A major FL textbook company interested in building a virtual world."
Flemmex [to Mehitabel]: But who wants to work there?
Gregor [to Flemmex]: Voice recognition. Count on it. ;o)
Claire [to Colega]: did you write it?
Colega works there.
Flemmex croaks "WQHat was that dearie?" at Gregor
Dingess [Guest] says, "But, who has equipment to take full advantage of the site, Markus?"
Claire says, "Who is going to ACTFL?"
Colega [to Claire]: Er... I'm heavily involved with it, and unfortunately not at liberty to talk much about it yet.
Yojimbo says, "tries to sneak out unobserved."
Yojimbo has disconnected.
Dingess [Guest] says, "Err, Colega."
Gregor says, "I'm glad Yojimbo happened by our little meeting. He didn't even know about it."
Mehitabel says, "I paged him."
Gregor [to Mehitabel]: Thanks.
Colega says, "Dingess brings up another point, that of equipment."
Flemmex sighs.
Markus [to Dingess [Guest]]: Here in Brazil Internet has been open to the non-academic public for less than 2 years, now you find almost no tv on the market without announcing the capability to connect to the web.
Gregor says, "Again, equipment is mostly a matter of attitude. I've seen fine activities done on a tiny B&W Mac Classic."
Colega [to Markus]: The Brazilians are wonderful! Within one week of the announcement that Spanish was the second language, they flooded MundoHispano to learn it.
Mehitabel [to Markus]: But one must pay for access, right?
Dingess [Guest] says, "I am running a three year old lab with P75 machines, sound and all that, but I don't think the graphics would handle a virtual environment with heavy images and also sound/voice recognition?"
Gregor's jaw drops as he notes that he is MOOing on the above mentioned tiny computer.
Markus . o O ( soon even microwave ovens will connect )
Flemmex laughs
Colega [to Dingess [Guest]]: Which is why text-based VR is the best for now!
Mehitabel says, "What about the rest of South America?"
Gregor [to Dingess [Guest]]: THIS is a virtual environment... no need for heavy graphics and sounds. ;o)
Claire [to Gregor]: i agree only partially. sure, you can do cool things with old equipment. but it ain't a matter of attitude when you want to do video and you have a tiny B&W Mac Classic.
Colega says, "Even Gregor can MOO!"
Markus [to Mehitabel]: here you have unlimited access at 25 USD a month
Dingess [Guest] says, "I think so too. But, wouldn't it be great if . . . ."
Yoshi doesn't believe in 'connect everthing and it should be useful' type of thought.
Claire says, "no it's 20 USD a month"
Claire [to Yoshi]: explain what you mean by 'connect everthing and it should be useful'
Mehitabel [to Markus]: But aren't you talking about upper middle class?
Colega says, "Software and hardware isn't the answer. Creative pedagogy and a can-do attitude is."
Gregor [to Claire]: I'm not knocking our new pentiums at school, beleive me. I like big shiny equipment as much as anyone!
Mehitabel understands Yoshi.
Claire chants I want video. I want RAM. I want bandwidth. I want a CD burner
Markus [to Mehitabel]: upper and lower - of course they make up less than 30% of the population here
Mehitabel [to Claire]: It is the lab you mentioned with no support staff.
Gregor joins the chant.
The housekeeper arrives to cart Yojimbo off to bed.
Yoshi says, "Everything doesn't have to be connected to the Internet, just for the sake of connection."
Markus prefers training for the teachers.
Claire [to yoshi,]: yes I agree completely
Dingess [Guest] says, "Yes, I agree that text is great. But, I can't even get my young Teaching Assistants to look at MOO, what am I going to do to get them to try Graphical Virtual what's it?"
Claire is waiting to find out if colega is going to ACTFL
Yoshi is glad Mehi understood it, ah, and Claire did;)
Gregor says, "But I'll take connection over any CALL software."
Flemmex says, "A colleague of mine says a computer that ain'"
Markus has been caught by the nasty lag devil. Please help!!
Colega [to Claire]: As far as I know, I am. But things change faster here than in Oz.
Claire [to Gregor]: I'll take GOOD CALL software over a connection if the teacher doesn't know what to do with the connection and the administration obstructs all efforts to use it.
Yoshi [to Flemmex]: It used to be a computer without any software is nothing but a box.
Flemmex says, " A computer that ain't connected to the net is like a car with no gearbox. Tyou just sit in the garage and rev the motor, but you don't go anywhere"
Gregor has to agree with Dingess. "Student expectations... Whew... if our software is more than a year old, the students smirk."
Colega grins.
Markus nods.
Colega has this cool quote from Esther Dyson, from the latest Newsweek....
Colega will try to paste it.
Claire is dying to hear colega's quote
Markus made a multimedia CD-ROM in 93 and will never repeat this experience...
------- Colega pastes info to the screen ---------
The downside of our obsession with the miracle of multimedia is that we lose the power of mere words, which are relatively cheap to create (requiring only a single author's time) and cheap to distribute. The challenge is that they require more work and attention - from the recipient, and from the creator, too. It requires work to create a coherent argument (I know; I'm trying to do it right now), and it requires work to follow the argument. However, that work produces something of value that multimedia, for all its cost, often doesn't: knowledge and understanding."
------- Colega stops pasting ---------
Yoshi [to Gregor]: Wouldn't you say that a sign of the fact that they aren't making most of waht the software does, but just that they're used by the softwre?
Gregor says, "My latest students rolled their eyes when they saw that we had Powerpoint 4 rather than 7. There's no damn difference to speak of, but they'd seen the higher number and that was that."
Mehitabel says, "Nice quote."
Dingess [Guest] says, "Amen Gregor!"
Mehitabel says, "I have to run now. It was nice talking with you all tonight."
Colega says, "it's harder to follow a text conversation than to look at a picture of a room full of people."
Markus hugs Mehitabel with a warm and loving embrace.
Gregor [to Mehitabel]: Glad you could come!
Colega patsa kitty onna head and slips her a catnip mouse.
Mehitabel [to Colega]: Thanks for guiding us.
Yoshi waves to Mehi.
Claire says, "bye mehi"
Mehitabel waves.
Markus waves at Mehitabel.
Dingess [Guest] says, "Go'nite Mahitabel"
Mehitabel goes home.
Gregor notes that time is up and it's bedtime for his kids.
Colega says, "Yikes! It is!"
Claire sumpathizes with the quote but doesn't agree with it.
Claire says, "sympathizes"
Gregor says, "This has been a fine session, folks."
Claire says, "bye all"
Markus nods at Gregor.

Gregor is going to display something new on the screen...

Markus says, "Bye".
On the screen you see...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A REMINDER...

For a transcript, please see our web page:
http://spot.colorado.edu/~youngerg/netmoo.html

Please link to our online suggestion box
at the website to suggest future topics!

****** Thanks for participating! ******

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Flemmex nods too
Flemmex says, "Bye Claire"
Gregor says, "We'll talk more next week..."
Markus waves at all.
Flemmex says, "See you!"
Claire has disconnected.
Yoshi says, "I'll be better by then."
Colega waves bye-bye to all.
|----------------[Gregor slaps some spam on the screen]----------------|
NETEACH-L MOO Session 14-B (Wednesday, October 22, 10 am EDT)
(15:00 pm GMT, 11 pm JP)
|---------------------[Gregor wipes off his hands]---------------------|
Markus hugs Colega with a warm and loving embrace.
Dingess [Guest] says, "Thanks everyone. this was my first MOO and my first Chat. I think I learned something."
Flemmex hopes so Yoshi
Colega hands an extra head of garlic to Yoshi.
Yoshi says, "See you all."
Markus waves at Yoshi.
Gregor hugs all his pals.
Yoshi waves.
Flemmex says, "Bye all!"
Yoshi goes home.
Markus calls "Bye now!"
Gregor [to Markus]: Thanks for logging.
Flemmex hugs, waves and goes.
Colega hums "The party's over..."
Flemmex disappears into the land of idledom, waving to you on the way out.

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