Can ESOL Classes Work Online?
NETEACH Nook
------- ----
A spacious classroom with a comfortable, lived-in feeling to it.
Among all the decorations brought by teachers from all parts of the globe,
there is a large, up-to-date world map with brightly colored push-pins
showing where NETEACHers have connected from. So far, there are pins in
Japan, Korea, Hong Kong, Australia, Greece, UK, Brazil, Israel, Canada,
France, Germany, Kuwait, Cyprus,and all over the US.
You see Teacher's Desk, Big Table, Bulletin Board, Beanbags, Fireside
Bearskin, Kitchen Table, Wading Pool, and Hot Tub.
You see Flemmex, Lesley, Kalle, Yoshi, Matt [Guest], Bronzed_Aussie,
Gregor, and Smoody standing about.
You see LCD Panel.
Obvious exits: out and frizbee
Flemmex says, "Hi Smoody!"
Flemmex hugs smoody
Gregor [to Smoody]: Just in time!
Bronzed_Aussie . o O ( oh to be cold and British :) )
Smoody says, "hi!"
Gregor grins.
Lesley [to Smoody]: Hey!
Gregor puts Transparency No.1 on the stage.
On the screen you see...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Welcome to NETEACH-L's MOO discussion sessions!
(with much appreciation to schMOOze University
and its fine players, programmers, and wizards!)
Please note! Our sessions are always logged.
By participating, you give permission
to Greg Younger to allow
access to the transcripts for research purposes
at his discretion.
Before using any part of our logs for research
or publication, please
obtain the permission of Greg Younger
at youngerg@colorado.edu
For a transcript, please see our web page:
http://spot.colorado.edu/~youngerg/netmoo.html
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kalle [to Bronzed_Aussie]: What's there to say against the Brits????
Lesley [to Bronzed_Aussie]: Ahem, I think I'm more Australian than
you.
Yoshi hands his permission to Gregor.
Bronzed_Aussie [to Lesley]: yeah, probably
Gregor laughs. "BA, whatever you put into that kiss... geez, it
melted the icy heart of Lesley. She's been slurping it up ever since!"
Lesley winks at Bronzed_Aussie.
Lesley growls at Gregor
Gregor grins and ducks.
Gregor puts Transparency No.2 on the stage.
Yoshi cahnt help laughing.
On the screen you see...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*** INTRODUCTIONS ***
You are of course welcome to remain anonymous,
but at this time
we invite all of you who wish to do so
to identify yourselves by
your name and affiliation.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gregor is Greg Younger, Economics Institute, Boulder, Colorado,
USA.
Smoody is Suzan Moody from the Chinese University of Hong Kong
Flemmex remains anonymous immediately after admitting to being
Mex Butler from various adult literacy and ESL things in Melbourne
Australia
Kalle is markus Koetter from the Univ. of Muenster, Germany
Lesley is from the OU in the UK.
Gregor [to Flemmex]: I'd have outed you if you tries to remain
anonymous. ;o)
Yoshi says, "I'm Awaji Yoshimasa, EFL teacher, lab manager and
network
administrator, and does-all-kind-job-kind convenient guy."
Flemmex looks around for the vloset
Bronzed_Aussie blows kisses to all .... I am Dale Pobega , working
in the same field as Flemmex .. same city even!
Gregor says, "Let's get Lex and Porky in here..."
porky is going to try to join you.
porky has arrived.
Lesley knows it well, and hopes everyone will look at the pics
of her visit to that field... tell 'em Dale!
Bronzed_Aussie laughs so loudly that half of the MOO starts to
stare...
Gregor [to porky]: Hiya, piggy. We've just introduced ourselves..
Bronzed_Aussie [to Lesley]: oh you're so web-o-genic!
porky says, "Sorry I missed that. I'm Dave Winet in Berkeley."
Flemmex [to porky]: Hi dave
Lex is going to try to join you.
Lex has arrived.
porky says, "Hi Flemmex and all"
Lex [to Gregor]: "Oops, forgot"
Brit [Guest] slides in, ready to NETwork.
Lex says, "Hi, all"
Gregor [to Lex]: No problem. Let's wait just a sec for Brit to
get in here...
Kalle drums his fingers next tio the keyboard
Gregor says, "Ah, there's Brit now. Lex and Brit, we've just all
introduced
ourselves."
Yoshi says, "Hi, porky and Lex."
Brit [Guest] says, "Hi everyone"
Gregor puts Transparency No.3 on the stage.
On the screen you see...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*** Can ESOL Classes Work Online? ***
In this session, we'll open the floor for brainstorming and discussion on the topic of the potential benefits and limitations of ESOL courses delivered at a distance. We hope for participants of all persuasions, from cynical skeptics to starry-eyed dreamers, from newbies to old hands, and all steps in between. Which language skills can be taught effectively online with relative ease? Which ones are going to take heaps of work? Which ones are bound to flop?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bronzed_Aussie [to Brit [Guest]]: I apologise for last session
I thought 'Brit' was your nick .. I made derogatory anti-British jokes
at your expense Brit [Guest] says, "that's OK, I'm used to it - ask Lex"
Gregor says, "Last week we had a great discussion... the log's
already up at the neteach moo webpage, if you haven't seen it yet..."
Lex [to Bronzed_Aussie]: it is her nick
Flemmex waves to Lex and Brit and hopes they will introduce themselves
Yoshi says, "Are we supposed to base our argument on the last session
and start from there?"
Bronzed_Aussie says, "umm ..err ..yeah ... "
Lex says, "I wrote my introduction already in my description, just
look at me."
Gregor says, "We brainstormed some of the difficulties/impossibilities
of teaching
language at a distance on the blackboard here last week. Type LOOK
BLACK to see what we wrote."
==================== BLACKBOARD ===========================
1) Oral skills
2) more oral skills.
3) BA is skeptical about use of audio clients for oral
communication
.. hasn't seen any yet that impresses him
4) testing for credit
5) I am skeptical about actually holding classes on the web
6) I don't think most web based courses are up to scratch
yet.
7) I'm impressed with the text-based application of using
MOOs to teach SL and the 'safety' factor of anonymity that this
environment
provides. Not quite sure how to integrate oral exercises with a MOO
lesson though??? Save that for RL?
8) online work is excellent for drills and practice tests.
9) MOOs are arenas for conversation practice, aren't they?
10) MOOs approach conversational skills, but are obviously
not oral.
===========================================================
Brit [Guest] says, "sorry I'm not used to this. My name is Claire
and I work
together with Lex on Web based English courses in Sweden"
Flemmex grins at Lex's description.
Gregor [to Lex]: Your description doesn't make it into the logs
for posterity, though. :o)
Lex says, "I wouldn't mine moving away from oral stuff this time..."
Flemmex says, "Nice to meet you Claire."
Lesley wonders whether to raise the question of audio clients again.
Lex says, "For posterity then: Lex (Lewis Lebolt, web course designer)
calls for another beer as he stretches"
Gregor says, "I think Lex is right... we beat that one into thre
ground pretty well, I think..."
Bronzed_Aussie [to Lesley]: yes, tell us about the client you showed
us in melbourne
Yoshi . o O ( Claire? )
Lesley [to Bronzed_Aussie]: Well, Shaun liked it a lot (if only
it had worked on your machine)
Bronzed_Aussie says, "lot's of sceptics here"
Gregor says, "Just a quick report about oral, then we'll move on.
Lesley can give us some insight into what's next in audio clients."
Smoody [to Gregor]: "What about discussing the benefits?
Lesley is about to start working on a project using an audio client
for distance language learning -- Kalle too.
Gregor [to Lesley]: what does it do?
Lesley [to Gregor]: Allows you to set up virtual areas a bit like
in MOO but in audio. Simple interface and has text chat support.
Lesley [to Kalle]: Do you want to add to that?
Kalle nods
Lesley listens
Gregor says, "What's the interface like? Is it integrated into
the browser like a plug in, or stand-alone app, or what?"
Kalle would prefer to listen some more before he adds to the
discussion
Lesley [to Gregor]: It's a standalone at the moment. But
very, very simple. Also shows who wants to speak so you don't get
people talking over each other.
Gregor says, "Ah, good feature. Is it going to be made available
to the world at large, or are you guys hogging it all to yourselves?"
Lesley says, "If Tearose were here, she could tell you what it's
like to use."
Lesley [to Gregor]: Still in negotiation at the moment.
Gregor nods.
Gregor says, "Did you all get a chance to look at the blackboard?"
Kalle nods
Yoshi did.
Brit [Guest] says, "yes"
Lesley nods.
Lesley keeps on lagging.
Lex nods
porky says, "Lesley,how is the audio?"
Gregor says, "Mehi wrote up there last week: 5) I am skeptical
about actually holding classes on the web"
Lesley [to porky]: Very good
Kalle agrees with most of what's been written on the board
Gregor says, "And BA stated that he loves 'Net based activities
used with a RL class...."
Lesley wants to ask why transfer the classroom metaphor to the
net anyway?
Kalle says, "has anyone of you got a reference about the synegy
(spelling?) effects of writing in the MOO on speaking?"
Lex says, "Why not discuss what the Internet is really good at?"
Lesley [to Kalle]: synergy
Kalle correcty synegy to synergy
Gregor says, "And I'm wondering if we could talk about that a little
more. How do we change our teaching to make language classes possible on
the net depsite the difficulties?"
Lesley [to Gregor]: Why are we talking about TEACHING and not
co-learning?
Lex likes Gregor's suggestion
Gregor [to Lesley]: Please do! ;o)
Kalle wonders whether we shouldn't take the board as some kind
of agenda
Gregor listens to Lesley.
Yoshi [to Lesley]: I guess that's because we're mostly teachers,
though I don't mean the 'drill-master.'
Kalle says, "has anyone of you ever really *taught* on the net?"
Lex [to Kalle]: ask Brit
Lesley wonders whether, in fact, before even considering the way
in which to use the net most effectively, we should first think about the
role of the teacher -- it's quite different in this environment.
Kalle asks Brit
porky says, "I have since 1994."
Flemmex does
Gregor [to Kalle]: Sure, I've given workshops here to teachers
far away... taught 'em how to MOO. Lesley and Markus taught some of
us to get started with CGI here....
Smoody hasn't taught on the net, but did take an on-line class.
"I liked the on-line format and think some ESOL classes could be done
successfully
on-line.
Brit [Guest] says, "I've been teaching a 'web assisted' course
for nearly a year"
Yoshi [to Kalle]: I regard most of what I do with the non-teachers
NNSs as some kind of 'teaching' or 'learning.'
Lesley [to Gregor]: No, I wouldn't say *taught*
Lex suspects that teaching English on the net is a little special
Gregor [to Lesley]: Is the role of the teacher online to be the
facilitator rather than a teacher?
Kalle [to Gregor]: yeah, but I didn't mean that. What about _language_
learning/teaching, especially in a more than 2 skills approach?
Flemmex has been taught a great deal in MOO too.
Brit [Guest] says, "absolutely"
Lesley says, "IS the role of the teacher to be a teacher in any
environment?"
Flemmex [to Lesley]: No
Lesley [to Flemmex]: Exactly
Yoshi [to Gregor]: Wait, why can't be a teacher a facilitator at
the same time?
Lesley [to Yoshi]: Depends how one defines the terms
Gregor [to Lesley]: What do you call it when you know something
that someone else doesn't and you pass that knowledge on to the other
person?
Matt [Guest] goes home.
Lesley [to Gregor]: Sharing
Yoshi [to Lesley]: Exactly, and I feel we have quite different
definitions here.
Lex says, "there's still a question of pedagogics here"
Gregor says, "How do you expect to be paid when you use a word
like sharing? :o)"
Kalle seconds Lex
Lesley [to Gregor]: It depends on one's priorities -- teacher is
a very controlling term
Kalle points to the debate in TESLCA about volunteering for Dave
Winet's online stuff
Bronzed_Aussie says, "teacher is better than trainer!"
Bronzed_Aussie hates training
Yoshi doesn't think so. "But what's so wrong with having
controlling when necessary?
Kalle says, "that was re: pbeing paid and the sharing of
knowledge/time/experience "
Gregor says, "Hmm, doesn't conjure up such a negative image for
me, but I'm from a long family line of teachers. I think of it in very
warm, sharing terms, for the most part. I think evil controlling teachers
are the minority."
Yoshi [to Bronzed_Aussie]: Whether you hate it or not, there're
situations people do need training.
Lex doesn't think that Socrates cared what title people gave him,
but he sure cared about what he did
Gregor says, "I think of teachers as people who've basically taken
a vow of poverty because they believe in their mission."
Lex laughs
Bronzed_Aussie partly agrees with Yoshi ... teaching takes much
more account of differences amongst learners .. training connotes a
uniform
, lock step approach for me
Gregor nods at Bronzed_Aussie.
Yoshi says, "I've had terrible experience with regards to teachers
from the past, but I still don't think 'teachers' are such a negative
terminology
myself. It really depends what you aim at."
Lesley sees it the other way round.
Lesley says, "For me, trainer is much more positive than teacher."
Brit [Guest] says, "what's in a name"
Kalle grins
Lesley says, "The former implies a shared experience, the latter
a controlled one"
Gregor says, "I think we could bat these words around for the rest
of the hour and beyond, but I think it's not the most productive use of
our time here..."
Lex says, "My goal is to get people to learn English"
Lesley [to Lex]: Why?
Brit [Guest] says, "and to enjoy doing it"
Bronzed_Aussie [to Brit [Guest]]: it is actually quie important
.. it underlies what we do, how we position ourselves, students and
pedaogogy
Flemmex is trying to help Yojimbo get in.
Yoshi says, "So, how'bout this? _Is the use of network the
best way to share experience?_"
Lesley nods at Bronzed_Aussie.
Gregor says, "What would be more useful, to me, is to talk about
what we DO in order to share/teach/etc English online."
Lex nods
Smoody would like to hear more about what others did in on-line
classes. "What was successful?
Brit [Guest] says, "Brit nods""
Lesley wonders if we could also consider the type of learners we're
talking about? Are they all in the same lab for example, or at a
distance, or...
Lesley says, "That makes a big difference to what is done."
Gregor says, "Since the stated topic is Distance Learning, let's
go with that."
Kalle [to Yoshi]: A tentative yes to that - depending on people's
willingness to share, of course
Lex says, "Internet gives us the ability to get group discussions
going that would be impossible any other way at a distance"
porky says, "the use of email, chat, and visual chat such as palace
is well established on EFI; a really good audio client would make voice
based classes realistic."
Yoshi [to Kalle]: I think the degree one can take advantage of
sharing experience on the net depends on one's prior learning experience
irl.
Gregor pokes da pig. "Porky, what's worked well in your project?"
Kalle has to reconnect - screen is absolutely frozen
Yoshi says, "So, if we underestimate the importance of rl experience
that comes before the networking, I'm afraid things would be very fruitful
even by all the power and ease of the networking."
Bronzed_Aussie does not consider himself an expert in Distance
Ed by any means but has a strong sense (by what he has observed around
Australia recently) that Distance Ed people are NOT using Net media in
an integrated way ... they are very WWW oriented .. it all comes out
looking
very flat .. could just as well
be done by print based means
Lesley [to Gregor]: Again it depends on the dl model you're using
Lex agrees with bronzed
Gregor [to Lesley]: Choose one, dear, and share with us!
porky says, "Aristotle apparently taught while walking around an
orange grove; on EFI we walk around the web."
Lesley [to Gregor]: Well, as you know, mine is very different from
yours.
Gregor nods at Lesley.
Kalle is back with you
Gregor [to Kalle]: don't worry, it's all in the log.
Lex says, "Process writing with peer reviews works well in discussion
groups"
Lesley [to Kalle]: We're discussing dl models. You and I
will be sharing one shortly
Kalle nods at Lesley and smiles
Gregor sits back to listen to Lesley.
Smoody [to Lex]: "But don't you think peer reviews can be done
as well through e-mail or webpages?
Lesley has a model with home-based learners.
Lex [to Smoody]: they are probably comparable, just that discussion
groups stay up there for a long time
Smoody laughs. "Lex, I thought you meant RL discussion groups
Kalle says, "ok, so the questions in front of us are a) which learners
- classroom vs. dispersed across the country/globe, b) concept of
teaching/leaning,
c) type of internet application used and/or in which format/combination,
right?"
Lesley thought Lex meant something like BA's Sopie
Lesley corrects a typo: Sophie
Kalle corrects a typo: learning
Lesley agrees with Kalle
Lex [to Kalle]: I think a is clearly distance ed dispersed
Kalle says, "and this is where I see the problem of/with this debate
- do we all know what the people gathered here do?"
Lesley . o O ( that's why I was asking about learners earlier.
)
Yoshi is more concerned with classroom based teaching/learning
at this moment, merely from the situation he's in.
Gregor [to Lesley]: Please tell us more about your model. It's
home-based learners...
Lesley [to Gregor]: These learners may or may not have access to
computers.
Lesley says, "So, we offer 'traditional' mixed media"
Kalle has tried to collect reports about the pedagogic use of MOOs
and has been able to collect some 10 essays and and endless array of tip
sheets with no data reports so far
Lesley says, "And we're just beginning to offer computer-based
material for those who wish it."
Lex [to Lesley]: what's that?
Lesley [to Lex]: Mixed media? Text, audio, video, BBC...
Lex nods
Gregor [to Lesley]: What does the computer-based material look
like for language classes (can I say 'classes' here?)
Lesley says, "Optional face to face and then compulsory one week
residential schools from Level 2 on"
Lesley [to Gregor]: No, you can't really.
Kalle [to Yoshi]: Very well, let's pick up your suggestion, which
on-line media do you use/have you used so far?
Gregor [to Lesley]: What do you call it?
Lesley [to Gregor]: At the moment it looks like CD-ROMs
Lesley [to Gregor]: We don't think in terms of classes.
Gregor [to Lesley]: What are the activities on those CDs?
Lex says, "do the CDs link to Internet sources?"
Lesley says, "We refer to students "
Lesley [to Gregor]: Depends on the course.
Yoshi [to Kalle]: Email, web, ftp, moo, even data shared on UNIX
shell, but these aren't necessarily with students in distance, rather
mostly
with my students in my classrooms.
Lesley says, "The usual really. 4 skills -- with the drawbacks
that implies using such a medium"
Kalle nods at yoshi
Gregor [to Lesley]: Could you give us an example from a language
class?
Lesley [to Gregor]: No, because we don't have classes.
Lex says, "one of the benefits is getting rl info from a current
source, like newspapers"
Steam shoots out Gregor's ears.
Lesley says, "It's supported self-study"
Lesley [to Kalle]: Can you explain more about this model yet?
Kalle [to Lex]: you could also use the on-line versions, we've
got a host of them on our SAC's homepage
Lex [to Lesley]: "any group work btwn studnets?
Yoshi [to Kalle]: You see my skepticism(rather I'm trying to be)
is from my oncern that too many teachers seem to believe introducing
networking
or multimedia can be something like 'curealls', which isn't the case at
all.
Gregor [to Lesley]: Could you give us an example from a language
self-study support module?
Lex [to Kalle]: that's what I meant
Lesley [to Lex]: Telephone conferencing, f2f tutorials and resi
schools.
Yoshi sees he's out of the topic here and think he should quiet
down.
Chonsa has arrived.
Lex says, "downside of CDs is that they aren't dynamic"
Kalle says, "Lesley has said it all - nothing to add from me"
Lesley says, "Exactly"
Flemmex smiles at Chonsa.
Lex maybe means interactive
Chonsa waves at Flemmex.
Gregor says, "But they can hold a bunch of a/v that could interact
with dynamic stuff on the web."
Gregor greets Chonsa.
Lex [to Gregor]: this could be a good way to go with the heavy
multimedia stuff
Chonsa smiles at Gregor.
Lesley thinks the web isn't really very dynamic/interactive.
The net, however...
Lex says, "as a source for a wide variety of interests and tastes,
the net can't be beat compared with most other sources"
Gregor says, "I'm thinking that students could have access to video
and audio materials on CD and then use the net to communicate with their
Sharers and fellow self-studiers using language from and about the MM
material
on the CD."
Lesley [to Gregor]: If they have access. We would have to
provide alternative means of offering materials
Kalle says, "well, at least according to my exp., most listservs
I subscribed to abund of downloadable audio files, new gap-fill
activities,
etc., something we've seen in the past, and soemthing that is still very
close to trad. CALL "
Yoshi thinks Lesley's point about the net being interactive as
a whole might be a bit exaggerating. "There're lots of different
services on the net and each has its characteristics and advantages."
Lesley . o O ( access is a HUGE issue in DL. )
Kalle [to Yoshi]: Example?
Lesley is aware of that, Yoshi.
Lex says, "if we can't demand access to Internet to get into the
course, we can never have net learning"
Yoshi [to Kalle]: How can ftp be 'interactive'?
Kalle [to Yoshi]: exactly
porky says, "As soon as you have students talking to each other
or even listening to other students talking to the teacher, that's
a class in my book."
Kalle says, "as goes for gap-filling and an automatically processed
result sheet"
Lesley [to Lex]: I'm talking about access to computers at all,
let alone the internet. We deal with a wide range of socioeconomic
groups.
Bronzed_Aussie says, "What I wonder about in all of this is the
level of expertise required by students to work with this high end net
media ... requires quite a bit of getting used to and a relatively high
level of net
knowledge .. what about your distance ed ss living out in the sticks
who are unfamiliar with the technology? eg. indiginous students"
Lesley nods at Bronzed_Aussie.
Lesley says, "I think that's also something I meant to include
in the term 'access'"
Kalle has done a big bilingual MOO project in spring and found
that it took his learners 1-3 sessions at most to get used to the MOO
Lex says, "this is where a browser is often the safest bet, if
they know something it'll be that."
Lesley [to Lex]: Not necessarily.
Yoshi [to porky]: I'm with you in that. And I think so many
teachers approach in a wrong way, not as 'how can certain technology can
make up something he/she couldn't do without in rl class', but 'certain
technology must be good in something'.
Bronzed_Aussie wonders about keeping it simple but exciting
nonetheless
Lesley nods at Bronzed_Aussie.
Kalle seconds BA
Lesley [to Kalle]: No, you third him.
Kalle thirds BA then
Bronzed_Aussie grins like a loony.
Lesley grins
Brit [Guest] says, "we often have problems with 'older' students
who are unused to technology"
Kalle says, "so, where are we in the debate then?"
Bronzed_Aussie [to Brit [Guest]]: yes!
Yoshi [to Brit [Guest]]: Oh, not only 'students' but 'old teachers'
too!
Yoshi laughs.
Brit [Guest] says, "yes, that too!!"
Lex thinks some teachers will probably never use this medium
Kalle [to Brit [Guest]]: and how did you cope with that?
Bronzed_Aussie says, "students who are going to struggle .. teachers
who will struggle .. we must not lose them to the tech"
Lesley says, "Actually, it isn't only older students -- we find
they're often more confident and have more time to try things (our older
students are often 50+)"
porky says, "The technology hurdle is a big one. But not
so much because of no access to computers, but rather because of
technophobia
and or inability to add clients, etc on, e. G., University owned
machines."
Lesley [to Lex]: That's partly age and partly how they see their
role I thnk.
Kalle nods
Lesley [to porky]: If they're in a campus situation. Our
problem really is access to computers.
Kalle repeats his question to Brit: if you say you had probs with
older students, how did you manage to cope?
Brit [Guest] says, "we tried to provide online help for the
non-techies
or peer group assistance"
Bronzed_Aussie [to porky]: you said it! the bureaucracy of
universities,
the nightmare of systems managers ... I have visited unis around Austrlai
in the last month and was appalled by how little freedom there was for
teachers to do anything ....
Kalle [to Brit [Guest]]: Great, does it work, I mean, we held on-line
"consulting hours" and stuff, too - with mixed results
Bronzed_Aussie says, "the hardwarem the system is so bloody sacred!"
Chonsa gathers her stuff and heads out the door.
porky says, "Actually computers and internet allow
us to reach students in countries where we could hardly go before."
Brit [Guest] says, "mostly it worked, sometimes we had to recruit
assistance to help them rl"
Kalle [to Brit [Guest]]: same here
Yoshi says, "Going back a bit in the topic, I admit the web is
the easiest solution to solve a lot of tech problems but I don't
necessarily
think it's the best way. This origianlly 'document distribution'
service has gone too far and complicated."
Bronzed_Aussie says, "a real turn off , even for those who just
wanted to create a hole in their firewall so they could MOO"
Smoody agrees access is important. "In my experience though
on-line courses were voluntary for the people who wanted to learn in that
way. The same learning experiences could also be had in traditional
ways. Like 2 sections of the same class
Yoshi [to porky]: Oh, I can't agree more with that. I wouldn't
be using English this much without the access to the net.
Lex [to Yoshi]: I presume you mean discussions, not just reading
stuff
Brit [Guest] says, "for many of my students online courses are
their only chance"
Flemmex had a bad experience particip[ating in an online course.
Bronzed_Aussie [to Flemmex]: tell us!
Yoshi [to Lex]: I meant the web is best to distribute information,
not something interactive.
Smoody [to Brit [Guest]]: "Why would on-line courses be the only
chance for your students?
porky says, "I'm thinking of some of our Russian students who have
no money but do have internet access."
Lesley had a so-so experience
Smoody had a great experience
Lesley [to porky]: For us, that would be a contradiction in
terms.
Students with no money don't have i/n access from home.
Kalle has to change the room in a couple of mins but will try to
come back in a few mins
Flemmex started a subject at uni about how to put courses on line
Brit [Guest] says, "many work and / live in very remote areas of
Sweden and wouldn't be able to study otherwise"
Lesley nods at Flemmex.
Lex says, "adding to what Brit said, some of them are also doing
these courses on company time"
Gregor nods Lex. "That's where some of our students will be too."
Lesley [to Brit [Guest]]: Many of ours live and work in very remote
parts of the British Isles and outlying parts of Europe, but they use
mixed
media in order to study on the whole. Online would be an optional
extra.
Flemmex says, "It had so many bad links and the page was designed
at a higher resolution than I use, being a bit visually challenged, so
the navigation stuff disappeared off the bottom of the page, but they'd
disabled scrolling"
Lesley nods at Flemmex.
Flemmex says, "the web page designer and content controllers were
different people"
Lex thinks that's a question of bad design
Lesley thinks it's also a question of poor quality control
Flemmex says, "So we'd tell the contact people we had, but they
couldn't fix the problems"
Gregor says, "That's poor design... which could indeed ruin a learning
experience, but it seems to me it's pretty easy to overcome that."
Flemmex says, "It was a major put-off and I ended up dumping the
subject"
porky [to Lesley]: many under developed countries are creating
an internet infrastructure, leapfrogging over earlier
technologies.
Lesley [to porky]: I know.
Flemmex [to Gregor]: One would have thought so, but the problem
wqs that it *didn't* get fixed.
Gregor nods porky. "We're hearing that from a lot of our west African
students."
Lex says, "point being that we have to pay attention to design
and quality control before we go online"
Lesley [to porky]: But our students don't live there.
Lesley agrees with Lex.
Flemmex says, "They also told us that we had to subscribe to a
mailing list that gets about 40 postings every day. It's a pain in the
arse"
Lesley nods at Flemmex.
Kalle wonders if anyone of you has documented these experiences
beyond the oral reporting of events on occasions like this
Gregor [to Flemmex]: We can all learn from your experience!
Lesley [to Flemmex]: Didn't they even offer the option to have
the whole lot parcelled up once a week or something?
porky [to Lesley]: different students I guess.
Lesley [to porky]: Precisely
Bronzed_Aussie says, "but Mex, we are living the international
Multimedia capital of the world ;) !"
Bronzed_Aussie chokes on his words
Brit [Guest] says, "Russia and the Baltic states are all keen to
use online courses - I think they see it as a cost-effective way of
improving
their education system but so far they seem to be having major problrms
with the infrastructure"
Lesley . o O ( it's a judgement on you, BA )
Flemmex [to Lesley]: The mailing list? Yes, they did. But I still
think it's unfair to make people subscribe to something that has that kind
of thru-put
Lesley nods at Flemmex.
Lesley [to Flemmex]: Not even an offline reader?
Flemmex says, "the course said we had to have 10 hours per week
to put in. I assure you that to do what they were asking took a helluva
lot more time than that."
Flemmex [to Lesley]: Nope
Lesley [to Flemmex]: These things usually do take more time.
porky says, "Realistically, your basic email is often the best
low tech solution for online classes at this stage."
Flemmex [to Lesley]: Then they should say so.
Lex says, "I gather some of you are down on the web, but as an
easy interface with clickable links it's pretty intuitive compared to many
other forms of net interaction"
Kalle [to porky]: would you regard email as an _online_ activity?
Lesley [to Flemmex]: Well, we always give a 'suggested' time but
point out it varies.
Flemmex [to Lex]: I'm not down on it per se, I just think that
it's used inappropriately because people don't yet have the experience
to knwo what's reasonable or workable
Lesley [to Lex]: But is it interactive in any real sense?
Lesley nods at Flemmex.
Flemmex nods at Lesley.
Lex says, "what about cgis?"
Bronzed_Aussie agrees with his aussie counterpart
Lesley [to Lex]: The cgi guru is at work at the moment, or you'd
get a response on that one.
Lesley [to Lex]: It depends on how you define interactive.
Lex [to Lesley]: entering info and getting a response, even in
real time. There are pearl based chat pages on the web, for instance
Lex thinks he meant perl
porky [to Kalle]: Yes online for me means internet
mediated.
I then distinguish between synchronous and asynchronous. Is that
confusing?
Lesley [to Lex]: You did. They're very slow.
Gregor says, "I need to conclude here... time to get the kiddies
ready for their swimming lesson."
Lex [to Lesley]: but the advantage is you don't have to leave the
browzer
interface. Is it worth that?
Lesley [to Lex]: No.
Flemmex waves, hugs and heads for home
Flemmex goes home.
Kalle [to porky]: yes, pretty much. I think that on-line is at
least partially synonymous with synchronous
Gregor says, "Looks like as we design our Internet-based language
materials, we need to think very carefully about what our role is and what
the learner's role is."
Lesley says, "They're generally so slow people lose interest."
Lesley says, "They also generally require a combination of clicks
and keystrokes."
Kalle seconds Lesley
Gregor [to Kalle]: I'd definitely have to disagree with that
definition.
Lesley says, "Which is ergonomically not a vey good solution."
Gregor says, "Online to me means "while logged in to the network
on the computer.""
Lex calls for another beer and stretches on the beach chair,
unergonomically
Lesley [to Gregor]: It can be, but I tend to agree with Kalle.
porky says, "Thanks for throwing this party Greg."
Kalle [to Gregor]: Nope, but that's the confusing and even misleading
part about most of the existing literature
Lesley definitely agrees with Kalle about that.
porky says, "What would be a better term than online?"
Kalle says, "everyone claims to do an on-line activity that more
often than not could as well - and in the same format - be achieved
working
with a CD-ROM"
Brit [Guest] says, "sorry folks, got to take the wrinklies out
for a spin, Bye"
Brit [Guest] has disconnected.
A campus caretaker arrives, and escorts Brit [Guest] to bed.
Gregor says, "What terms do you use, then?"
Lex [to Kalle]: couldn't agree more
Gregor says, "Wait, wait, wait, don't answer that! I need to get
out of here! :)"
Gregor grins and posts the Grand Finale thingy...
Bronzed_Aussie throws gregor a kick board
Lex doesn't envy gregor his stress factor
Yoshi says, "Thanks for organizing the session, Greg."
Kalle says, "I'd use web-based for the former reserve
synchronous/on-line/interactive
for activities that require human-human interaction"
Lex says, "Thanks greg"
Lesley was just typing that in.
Gregor puts Transparency No.5 on the stage.
Yoshi says, "and nice talking with you all."
On the screen you see...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A REMINDER...
Please note! Our sessions are always logged.
By participating, you give permission
to Greg Younger to allow
access to the transcripts for research purposes
at his discretion.
Before using any part of our logs for research
or publication, please
obtain the permission of Greg Younger
at youngerg@colorado.edu
For a transcript, please see our web page:
http://spot.colorado.edu/~youngerg/netmoo.html
Please link to our online suggestion box
at the website to suggest future topics!
****** Thanks for participating! ******
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lesley . o O ( re what Kalle just said. )
Yoshi cheers.
Bronzed_Aussie says, "human-human interaction? ...? well, what
else is there? :)"porky says, "Have you ever tried to send a CD ROM to
Paraguay?"
Smoody thanks Gregor
Gregor says, "Thanks for all the great clarification of terms,
folks."
Kalle regrets that the session seems to be over - I was just warming
up to it
Bronzed_Aussie . o O ( human-inhuman ineraction? )
Lesley has been caught by the nasty lag devil. Please help!!
Lesley is fighting with the lag monster. A second please.
Gregor catches the kickboard and waves as he pads across the scorching
sidewalk in his bare feet.
Lex [to Kalle]: sounds like the story of mylife
Smoody wavese bye
Yoshi has to go down to the kitchen and do the dishes.
Smoody waves goodbye too
Bronzed_Aussie . o O ( human-animal interaction? :) )
Please send comments to youngerg@spot.colorado.edu.