Applying the Five C's to Online Language Learning
NETEACH Nook
------- ----
A spacious classroom with a comfortable, lived-in feeling to it.
In
addition to all the decorations brought by teachers from all parts
of the globe, there is a large, up-to-date world map with brightly
colored push-pins showing where NETEACHers have connected from.
So
far, there are pins in Japan, Korea, Hong Kong, Australia, Greece,
UK, Brazil, Israel, Canada, France, Germany, Kuwait, Cyprus, Taiwan,
and all over the US.
You see Teacher's Desk, Big Table, Bulletin Board, Beanbags, Fireside
Bearskin, Kitchen Table, Wading Pool, and Hot Tub.
You see Flemmex, Venny, Colega, Mehitabel, Gregor, and farkas [Guest]
standing about.
You see LCD Panel and @ONE Demo.
Obvious exits: out
Gregor puts Transparency No.1 on the stage.
On the screen you see...
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Welcome to NETEACH-L's MOO discussion sessions!
(with much appreciation to schMOOze University
and its fine players, programmers, and wizards!)
Please note! Our sessions are always logged.
By participating, you give permission
to Greg Younger to allow
access to the transcripts for research purposes
at his discretion.
Before using any part of our logs for research
or publication, please
obtain the
permission of Greg Younger at greg@dyvic.com
For a transcript, please see our web page:
http://www.dyvic.com/~greg/netmoo/
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Gregor puts Transparency No.2 on the stage.
On the screen you see...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*** INTRODUCTIONS ***
You are of course welcome to remain anonymous,
but at this time
we invite all of you who wish to do so
to identify yourselves by
your name and affiliation.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Colega [to Mehitabel]: You first!
Gregor is Greg Younger, Director of Instructional Systems Integration
at Dyvic Innovations, Inc.
Colega grins.
Gregor [to Colega]: Type, dang ye!
Mehitabel says, "One sec. Phone call. Go ahead without me."
Gregor laughs.
farkas [Guest] says, "Jim Woulfe, ACL Sydney"
Colega grins.
Colega [to farkas [Guest]]: What is ACL, if you please?
Flemmex is Mex Butler, RMITU Melbourne - no longer a language
teacher (well, not officially anyway, but some of these Applied Science
people!)
Colega is Lonnie Turbee, Director of Educational Environment
Development at Dyvic Innovations, Inc.
Gregor [to Flemmex]: Gonna bring them up to speed on human languages?
;o)
KeikoS is going to try to join you.
farkas [Guest] says, "a language school for overseas students and
migrants - biggest private langauge provider in australia"
KeikoS has arrived.
Colega [to farkas [Guest]]: Ah! Thank you!
Flemmex can but try.
Mehitabel is Julie Falsetti from Hunter College in New York city.
Gregor [to KeikoS]: You're just in time to introduce yourself.
:o)
Smoody has been moved, possibly against her will. We hope Those
Responsible are happy.
Smoody says, "Hey!"
Colega waves to Keiko and Smoody
Gregor grins. "Smoody! Glad you could make it! You're just in time
for introductions."
KeikoS says, "Oh, I am new here. Keiko Schneider.
MAT in ESL holder, but now an ex teacher of Japanese."
KeikoS bows like a polite Japanese.
Gregor [to KeikoS]: ohayo gozaimasu, sensei!
Smoody is Suzan Moody at The Chinese University of Hong Kong
Gregor says, "OK, shall we start? Here's the topic again..."
KeikoS bows to everybody
Gregor puts Transparency No.3 on the stage.
On the screen you see...
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*** Applying the Five C's to Online Language Learning ***
ACTFL (the American Council on Teaching Foreign Languages), in
collaboration with other language teaching organizations, has
published a set of standards for language instruction whose goals
can be summarized by "the Five C's:" Communication, Cultures,
Connections, Comparisons, and Communities. This mnemonic describes
the goals of content standards for language instruction: what
students should know and what they should be able to do.
Is it possible to successfully reach all five of these goal areas
in a completely online language instruction scenario? If yes, how?
If no, what is missing and how can we rectify it?
(see http://www.actfl.org/
to retrieve the 5 C's document)
(But don't forget to keep coming back to this
window!! :o)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SarahS is going to try to join you.
Gregor says, "Have you folks had a chance to read about the Five
C's at the ACTFL site?"
SarahS has arrived.
farkas [Guest] says, "si"
Flemmex says, "Nope."
Colega waves to SarahS.
KeikoS is supposed to be presenting 5C and internet in march -eek
SarahS waves hello
Flemmex will try to read and pay attention too
Mehitabel hasn't.
SarahS sits down at Teacher's Desk. . .
farkas [Guest] says, "where keiko?"
Flemmex waves at SarahS.
Gregor says, "What I thought we'd do this evening (sorry to be
so hemispherecentric, Ozzies!) is to look at each of the objectives and
talk about how possible it is to reach those standards in an online language
learning setting."
KeikoS says, "This will be for Association of Teachers of Japanese
meeting in Chicago"
SarahS stands up from Teacher's Desk. . .
Gregor [to Flemmex]: No worries; I've got slides. ;o)
Colega [to SarahS]: could you introduce yourself to us?
Gregor greets SarahS. "Glad you could make it!"
Gregor [to SarahS]: You can take a look at the first slide by typing:
peek 3 in LCD
[Flemmex peeks into No.3.]
Venny bows.
[KeikoS peeks into No.3.]
[farkas [Guest] peeks into No.3.]
SarahS says, "hi - I am Sarah S from Boston - NE School of Law"
[SarahS peeks into No.3.]
Gregor greets Venny. "Glad you woke up! ;o)"
Venny is lagging badly. Please bear with him until he either
lags out or returns to the MOO.
Gregor says, "OK, so to repeat the way I'd like to structure this
discussion tonight: Let's look at each of the objectives and talk about
how possible it is to reach those standards in an online language learning
setting."
Gregor puts Transparency No.4 on the stage.
On the screen you see...
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COMMUNICATION
*Communication* is the heart of second language study, whether the
communication takes place face-to-face, in writing, or across
centuries through the reading of literature.
Standard 1.1: Students engage in conversations, provide and obtain
information, express feelings and emotions, and exchange
opinions.
Standard 1.2: Students understand and interpret written and spoken
language on a variety of topics.
Standard 1.3: Students present information, concepts, and ideas
to
an audience of listeners or readers on a variety of topics.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
KeikoS nods
Colega says, "Okay - so how do they engage in conversations online?"
Gregor says, "The first C is Communication, and these are the standards
that ACFTL and its collaborators came up with."
Gregor [to Colega]: Like this. ;o)
Colega sizes up Gregor, trying to decide whether she wants to engage
in conversation with this character...
Gregor says, "This is interesting to me because in the Spanish
classes I took in my university, we NEVER EVER had a conversation."
Mehitabel says, "Me either."
Flemmex advises Colega to engage with care.
Colega says, "Okay, it's clear it can be done in-MOO... but what
percentage of all teachers use MOO?"
Gregor says, "But I note that when students come to schMOOze, they
are constantly having conversations in the target language."
Colega nods gratefully to Flemmex.
farkas [Guest] says, "as an inexpert user of MOOs, I find it all
a little intimidating, which is why I have never tried it with a group
of students"
Colega says, "Because they've found someone interesting to converse
with, not because that person speaks the target language."
Gregor nods to farkas.
Flemmex [to farkas [Guest]]: For an intimidated inexpert, you serem
to be cruising.
Colega [to farkas [Guest]]: I think there are a lot who feel the
same.
Flemmex says, "er... seem"
Gregor [to Colega]: Good point... and that's the difference between
"conversations" and those horrible "dialogs" I did in Spanish class.
KeikoS just envys ESL teacher on that, MOO can't display Japanese
most of the time
Colega says, "Dialogs are not conversations."
Venny says, "students may feel more free to talk in MOO"
SarahS says, "the most frequent MOO conversation I have is about
how to use the MOO"
Flemmex laughs.
Venny chuckles.
Mehitabel says, "One problem is that students don't see it as a
'real' conversation, at least, not at first."
Colega knows why they feel more free... the danged teacher can't
be listening in on every conversation!
Gregor [to SarahS]: Hey, whatever works! :o)
farkas [Guest] says, "your're right Venny, and there is some evidence
for this"
Colega grins at SarahS.
Colega says, "an authentic purpose!"
Gregor says, "Seriously, SarahS, technical troubles are a great
gift to the language teacher."
KeikoS says, "Language is environment specific -- natural"
farkas [Guest] says, "how, Gregor?"
Gregor [to farkas [Guest]]: it is very motivating to have a REAL
NEED TO COMMUNICATE.
Colega chimes in: "Gives them something to get information about
immediately."
KeikoS smiles and agrees to Gregor
Colega says, "Kinda like needing a bathroom as soon as you land
in Madrid."
KeikoS says, "or agree with..."
Flemmex has never been to Madrid, but can identify.
Gregor says, "There are a lot of students who come here assigned
to do some "manufactured conversations..." They are supposed to interview
someone from another country or whatever. It's annoying to the "victims"
and embarrassing for the students."
SarahS [to Colega]: yes, but sign language works pretty well for
that
Gregor says, "But players here are always willing to help newbies
with the technology."
farkas [Guest] says, "sorry, I meant how are technical problems
a gift to lanaguge teacher?"
Venny says, "Although the most frequent conversations maybe asking
how to use MOO, there are some interesting topics, such as hobby, study,
reading, love, or some stories..."
Venny says, "even their feelings"
Mehitabel says, "I am sure more 'love' than we are aware of."
KeikoS grins - so this place is that kind of place
Mehitabel says, "We are going to have our 4th moo marriage."
Venny says, "If they got a feeling of community, students will
come often and have more conversatoin"
Colega [to farkas [Guest]]: There is an immediate topic for conversation
always available - how to use the MOO - so the teacher doesn't have to
invent some topic that has no meaning for his/her students.
Gregor [to farkas [Guest]]: Because they require that students
use all sorts of functional vocabulary to get the info they need. They're
ripe with opportunity for language learning.
Flemmex [to Mehitabel]: Really? Who?
Mehitabel says, "Shaun and Nutty."
Venny [to Mehitabel]: who, where?
Flemmex says, "Really!!!"
Colega [to Mehitabel]: Will this also be a real life marriage?
Mehitabel says, "It is only a real life marriage."
Flemmex knows Shaun.
Flemmex says, "That's pretty exciting!"
Gregor [to farkas [Guest]]: 1) request for help or information,
2) request for clarification, 3) turn taking language, 4) thanks and closing
language, etc.
Colega says, "MundoHispano, the Spanish MOO, has been a veritable
hotbed of love relationships and - ugh! - triangles that caused all
sorts of fascinating social problems."
KeikoS grins
KeikoS says, "real life novelas"
Venny . o O ( fascination?! : )
Gregor twirls a lasso around his head and threatens to use it to
bring y'all back on topic. ;o)
Colega says, "So besides MOO, what else can be used for online
conversation?"
Colega says, "Or... can we just call it distance conversation?"
Gregor puts the Communication slide up again.
Gregor puts Transparency No.4 on the stage.
On the screen you see...
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COMMUNICATION
*Communication* is the heart of second language study, whether the
communication takes place face-to-face, in writing, or across
centuries through the reading of literature.
Standard 1.1: Students engage in conversations, provide and obtain
information, express feelings and emotions, and exchange
opinions.
Standard 1.2: Students understand and interpret written and spoken
language on a variety of topics.
Standard 1.3: Students present information, concepts, and ideas
to
an audience of listeners or readers on a variety of topics.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gregor says, "OK, how about that SPOKEN LANGUAGE aspect?"
SarahS says, "where do you live, what courses do you like, travels
& music, etc. in common"
Colega thinks the telephone is great, and with prices dropping
in many parts, it's becoming more feasible to use it.
KeikoS says, "Well, it could be asynchronous, email BBS ."
KeikoS says, "even audio and video conferencing"
Flemmex was about to mention the phone.
Flemmex says, "Teleconferencing is still quite expensive here."
Gregor . o O ( phone, how delightfully retro. )
Gregor grins.
Colega says, "My favorite technology, because you don't say "Oh,
what cool technology!" every time you use it."
KeikoS says, "One I think exciting is PureVoice, online audio asynchro"
Colega [to KeikoS]: Have a URL for that?
KeikoS looks
KeikoS says, "It is a Eudora plug-in"
Flemmex passes Colega an empty can with a piece of string and bellows
into one at the other end.
Gregor says, "I've dabbled with hearme <http://www.hearme.com/>
a bit. It works. Their "community" is overrun by pervs, however."
Colega stares into the can.
Colega shakes her head.
Flemmex [to Colega]: Put it to your ear!
SarahS says, "maybe the string has to be pulled taut"
Colega tips her head sideways onto the can.
Mehitabel says, "I think hearing voice is important."
Gregor [to Colega]: Will you make a brief statement about how we
use oral discourse in MOO and thus practice "spoken language" even though
we're typing?
>>>> Hey Colega, CAN YOU HEAR ME???<<<<
Mehitabel says, "You don't get the emotional nuances with text
alone."
KeikoS agrees with Mehitabel
Gregor [to Colega]: I love it when you talk about that.
Flemmex gets a sore throat from yelling across the Pacific.
Gregor glares at Mehitabel and Keiko and shrieks, "What do you
mean, no emotional nuance!?!?!?"
Colega says, "Language Connect Institute, the now-defunct distance
language "school" of Syracuse Language, used the telephone quite successfully,
and had people testing higher and higher on Oral Proficiency Exams as a
result."
archy is going to try to join you.
archy has arrived.
Colega [to Gregor]: Oh! Sure.
archy waves
Mehitabel says, "Hi, archy."
Colega grins.
Gregor welcomes archy.
KeikoS waves to archy
Flemmex waves nuancially at archy.
KeikoS says, "Here is URL for PureVoice http://www.eudora.com/purevoice/"
Colega says, "Okay ... What students get to practice in MOO is
speech discourse - the words and collocations that happen in certain contexts..."
Mehitabel [to Gregor]: You have the linguistic ability to convey
emotional nuances. MOst NNSs don't.
farkas [Guest] says, "g'day archy"
Venny waves at archy.
archy says, "oi farkas"
Gregor [to Mehitabel]: I know. I was just showing off. ;o)
SarahS warns archy to duck under the string connecting the cans
held by Colega and Gregor
Colega says, "... so that by the time you have to actually pronounce
stuff in a real conversation, you don't have to do two jobs - thinking
of the discourse and pronouncing properly."
Gregor cheers for Colega.
Venny says, "Can a speech synthesizer in MOO do the spoken part?"
archy thinks the string is well over his thorax
KeikoS knows all about it- going through everyday
Colega [to Venny]: Excellent question...
Venny grins at Colega.
Gregor [to Venny]: Maybe, with the proper client. But more likely
in a new platform than in MOO.
Colega says, "At Grassroots MOO there are a lot of people, probably
most of the wizard staff, who use text to speech software because of disabilities."
archy says, "sure ... there were a couple of blind players at other
mu*s"
KeikoS [to Venny]: Is that picture graph thing?
Gregor says, "Ah, of course, an external text-to-speech application.
Duh."
Colega says, "Problem is, for language learning purposes, computers
are still lacking a lot of ... charm, nuances, etc. "
archy [to Gregor]: no need. pump the output through a synth.
KeikoS says, "I don't think text speech is still not good enough
to be model for langauge teaching."
Colega agrees with Keiko
farkas [Guest] does too
Colega says, "So who here has used any of the Internet telephony
apps with language learners?"
Venny shakes his head at KeikoS.
KeikoS drops her head -unfortuantely no
Gregor notes that 30 minutes into our 60-minute discussion, we're
still on the easy C: Communication. "Seems that it's pretty obvious that
there are ways to do it pretty well online. Let's move onto the next one...
Colega has never done it.
Gregor puts Transparency No.5 on the stage.
On the screen you see...
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CULTURES
Through the study of other languages, students gain a knowledge
and
understanding of the *cultures* that use that language and, in
fact,
cannot truly master the language until they have also mastered
the
cultural contexts in which the language occurs.
Standard 2.1: Students demonstrate an understanding of the
relationship between the practices and perspectives of the
culture
studied.
Standard 2.2: Students demonstrate an understanding of the
relationship between the products and perspectives of the
culture
studied.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
KeikoS nods
farkas [Guest] says, "isn't this th eeasy part?"
Gregor says, "Here's where the WWW comes in, in my opinion."
SarahS says, "what about those of us who have a very high level
of anxiety with voice/phone, esp. with other languages, but learn well
and comfortable using text alone - it may not be mastery, but it is better
than ignorance complete"
KeikoS says, "Actually technology is all over 5C"
Colega says, "Any content that's been created by NNSs."
Gregor nods to farkas. "I think so. This one seems pretty "informational,"
and there's heaps of information available to give people cultural input.
Gregor [to SarahS]: I agree with you.
archy would think colega has one too many n's
Colega [to SarahS]: Then your course should encourage you to learn
what you can in the ways that work best for you!
KeikoS says, "The trick part of culture is culture with products
and culture with perspectives"
Colega [to archy]: Exactly! My bad!
Venny says, "Differnt buildings (rooms) here are a kind of culture."
Colega says, "Any content that's been created by NSs."
Gregor [to Colega]: That's better. ;o)
archy agrees with colega now
Venny says, "especially, Culture center here"
Colega says, "So in what online apps can NSs create their own content
for learners to access?"
Colega says, "Email?"
Colega says, "MOO?"
Colega says, "chat rooms?"
Colega says, "Web boards?"
Mehitabel [to KeikoS]: What do you mean by culture with products
and culture with perspectives?
Gregor makes a list. "Email discussion lists, MOO, Web, chat, etc.
etc. etc. I agree with farkas, this is the easy one."
archy says, "all of the above (and bbs's too)"
KeikoS says, "Well, you have to learn culture from something, right?"
Venny says, "Different users here also represent different cultures."
Smoody says, "webpages too"
KeikoS says, "If we start talking about culture from rice cake,
that is products"
Colega says, "But what about the perspectives part?"
KeikoS says, "I think it is like..."
KeikoS says, "Japanese work hard"
Colega says, "I think that's not as easy to get unless you've formed
a relationship with a NS."
Venny says, "Students will meet kind of culture shock here when
they meet some users from other countries."
Gregor says, "KeikoS had a good point, though... you don't necessarily
get "perspective" from reading a website. That's where the more communicative
tools come in, to put people in touch with other people to talk about that
information"
Venny is lagging badly. Please bear with him until he either
lags out or returns to the MOO.
SarahS says, "I encounter cultural differences in deference to
teachers on the MOO"
Gregor [to SarahS]: how so?
KeikoS listens hard-- hear ears are like from Dumbo
archy was blown away by the age thing
SarahS says, "many Asian students seem concerned that they may
be taking up too much time of the teacher"
Colega [to archy]: Age thing?
archy nods
Mehitabel [to SarahS]: Not my Asian students!
archy says, "chinese and japanese in particular ... first question
was "how old are you""
Colega [to archy]: You mean that age is respected in other cultures?
Gregor nods to SarahS.
KeikoS is actually Japanese
Colega says, "Oh wow! I get it! It's important to know
how old the other person is so you show them the proper deference."
Colega says, "Is that right?"
Gregor is virtually Tibetan.
Mehitabel says, "But then again, they are paying a lot of money
for their course."
Gregor grins.
Colega giggles.
archy says, "right"
Colega says, "But asking someone their age in other cultures is
considered rude, especially if you're asking an adult."
SarahS says, "or suggestive, in some contexts"
Gregor [to Colega]: And what a great way to learn that... here
where you don't lose as much face as you would IRL
archy says, "like in the u.s., adressing a female"
Colega says, "Okay, besides MOO, what other apps allow one to get
cultural perspectives?"
Colega nods to Gregor.
Gregor says, "I'd like to suggest that we move along to the next
slide..."
KeikoS says, "Good quesiton Colega"
Colega grins at SarahS, remembering all those 22-year-old latinos
on MundoHispano asking her age (older than water).
Gregor says, "Keep a note of which topics you would like to come
back to at the end of the discussion if there's time."
Colega says, "Okay, besides MOO, what other apps allow one to get
cultural perspectives?"
Gregor puts Transparency No.6 on the stage.
On the screen you see...
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CONNECTIONS
Learning languages provides *connections* to the additional bodies
of knoledge that may be unavailable to the monolingual English
speaker.
Standard 3.1: Students reinforce and further their knowledge of
other
disciplines through the foreign language.
Standard 3.2: Students acquire information and recognize the
distinctive viewpoints that are only available through the
foreign
language and its cultures.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
KeikoS says, "This is what is most exciting about 5C, well, to
me."
Colega says, "This is Languages Across the Curriculum."
farkas [Guest] says, "again, www is extremely useful here"
Gregor [to KeikoS]: Are you involved in LAC (Language Across the
Curriculum) program?
KeikoS says, "I take it back, I am big on Community"
KeikoS [to Gregor]: Noooo. tell me about it.
Miao is going to try to join you.
Miao has arrived.
Miao bows.
Mehitabel says, "Hi, Miao."
KeikoS waves to Miao
SarahS says, "is this also part of depth, or is there another C
for that - that some thought or precision of thought can be specific to
one language"
archy thinks this is more useful if the goal is the other subject,
but he knows nothing about language acquisition
farkas [Guest] says, "ciao miao"
KeikoS says, "This is where langauge learning is more than memorizing
a dialog."
KeikoS says, "You talk for real, and talk something that is interest
and in intelligent level."
Colega thinks Sarah has a made a very important point.
Colega slaps up this LAC URL: http://www.language.brown.edu/LAC/
KeikoS bows to Colega for URL. Looks really good.
Colega [to SarahS]: There are a number of things I can express
better in my bad Spanish than in my native English.
Gregor [to SarahS]: Great point, and I'm skimming really quickly
through the ACFTL materials to find it...
Flemmex is being called away by work things.
Flemmex waves and will idle here so as to read back later.
Gregor [to Flemmex]: Thanks for coming.
archy waves to flemm
Colega says, "Do we know of anyone who has taught courses other
than language courses in-MOO, and in the target language?"
KeikoS says, "If I learn how to sing alphabet song in Spanish,
that doesn't count as one point here."
Mehitabel says, "Bye, MEx."
Colega waves to mex.
SarahS waves bye to Flemm & hopes he drops the can before leaving
KeikoS bows to mex
Miao waves at Flemmex.
Flemmex thanks SarahS for the reminder and gently places the can
over archy.
Colega [to Mehitabel]: Do you know of anyone who has taught anything
besides English here?
Flemmex [to archy]: Yell real loud and Colega will hear you.
Colega cracks up!
SarahS thinks that covered his thorax
Smoody [to Colega]: "well, some of us have done "techie" courses
in English for ESL students. Stuff like how to build a webpage.
This would fall in that category, right?
Gregor says, "I think of words in Spanish that have no real English
equivalent, and how learning those words gave me an insight into the whole
way of thinking that would lead to using a word like that..."
archy shouts "mflh! lep e ou!
KeikoS [to Smoody]: I think it counts
Gregor says, "Or in Japanese... the word omiyage, for example..."
KeikoS [to moody]: and I think it is a good one
archy find a small stick, just big enough to slide under the edge
of the can to give him room to squize out
Gregor [to KeikoS]: Correct me if I am wrong, but omiyage is more
than "gift" and "souvenir"; it's a very cultural thing that has no translation
in English... right?
Colega says, "Okay, besides MOO, what other apps allow one to get
those connections?"
KeikoS [to Gregor]: we will discuss that later... if it is ok.
Gregor [to KeikoS]: Sure.
SarahS [to archy]: how clever of you. Are youOK?
Gregor [to Colega]: Email discussion lists seem to allow this kind
of connection...
archy says, "any sort of discussion ... real time (cha) or not
(bbs)"
Colega rubs her ear - archy was really yelling!
Gregor says, "I always enjoyed getting my students involved in
discussion lists for business, economic matters, or their hobbies and interests
that had nothing to do with language."
archy left the t off of 'chat'
KeikoS thought it was tea-- just kidding
Gregor rushes to get one last slide in.
Colega says, "And that's what happens in any environment where
the teacher isn't telling you what to talk about!"
Gregor puts Transparency No.7 on the stage.
On the screen you see...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
COMPARISONS
Through *comparisons* and contrasts with the language being studied,
students develop insight into the nature of language and the concept
of culture and realize that there are multiple ways of viewing
the
world.
Standard 4.1: Students demonstrate understanding of the nature of
language through comparisons of the language studied and
their own.
Standard 4.2: Students demonstrate understanding of the concept
of
culture through comparisons of the cultures studied and their
own.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SarahS says, "I think when the students start building, and thinking
of visual metaphors, that you get connections on MOO that would not be
on chat or bbs"
archy is ok. good thing he has the power to create sticks when
needed
KeikoS says, "oh, we don't get to community?!?!"
Colega kinda wondered about that!
Gregor [to KeikoS]: I'll hurry! ;o)
Colega says, "Let's do comparisons."
Colega says, "Then community."
farkas [Guest] says, "erm, isn't this what we've been discussing?"
KeikoS says, "No we should do this again, Gregor"
Colega says, "Everyone talk fast!"
Gregor [to KeikoS]: We are, tomorrow morning. ;o)
Colega grins.
farkas [Guest] says, "comparisons, I mean"
KeikoS says, "ahh, 8am"
KeikoS nods to farkas
farkas [Guest] says, "ah, 1.AM sydney"
archy thought *this* was 8am for keikos
Colega says, "This seems a bit nebulous, doesn't it? How
do students develop the ability to make comparisons, and then demonstrate
that ability?"
KeikoS is in Land of Enchantment, New Mexico, USA
Gregor says, "I've often said and heard others say "I never knew
so much about English grammar until I studied Spanish (or German or Japanese
or whatever)"
Mehitabel says, "I think all of these Cs can be done online, but
not as well as F2F contact."
SarahS says, "except for the shy"
Colega says, "What does F2F have that the combination of online
apps doesn't provide?"
archy says, "well ... didn't we just sidesep a demo with gregor's
q to keiko about the gift thing?"
Mehitabel [to SarahS]: But the shy can really see a friendly RL
smile.
Colega [to SarahS]: And there are plenty of shy folks who detest
foreign language learning because you have to converse while making a thousand
mistakes.
farkas [Guest] says, " sarah the shy seem to get a better go on
line than F2F"
KeikoS says, "I think connections is more like traditional school
subject matter."
KeikoS says, "typical and easiest is to connect with geography"
SarahS [to farkas [Guest]]: right!
Gregor says, "Yeah, I don't know if there's any special online
facility that allows the comparisons more readily than f2f instruction."
Colega has seen literally half the class... the silent half...
take off once they were using email and MOO.
archy says, "but it is cheaper to go electronic, hence this discussion"
Gregor [to Colega]: Did they improve f2f too?
KeikoS is really interested
Colega says, "Absolutely! They stopped being as shy in class!"
SarahS says, "wow"
KeikoS huhs
Colega says, "They'd come to class bursting with the news about
what their online friend had told them the night before in-MOO."
Gregor says, "I think Dorothy Chun wrote something about that,
using chat in a German class."
Mehitabel says, "Anecdoteally speaking, most of the moo people
I have met RL are far from shy."
KeikoS thinks -- skill transfer?
Gregor [to Mehitabel]: Too true.
Gregor blushes, "Except me."
archy is shy, and retireing
Gregor races to get the COMMUNITY slide up there.
Gregor puts Transparency No.8 on the stage.
Mehitabel says, "The only student in a former class that really
'took' to moo was the most outgoing IRL."
On the screen you see...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMUNITIES
Together, these elements enable the student of languages to participate
in multilingual *communities* at home and around the world in a
variety
of contexts and in culturally appropriate ways.
Standard 5.1: Students use the language both within and beyond the
school setting.
Standard 5.2: Students show evidence of becoming life-long learners
by
using the language for personal enjoyment and enrichment.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Colega says, "Yeah, the ones who use it a lot. But a lot
of these shy students used it for the semester, got a lot out of it, and
then didn't need it any more because the course was over. And that's
okay."
KeikoS says, "THIS is my favorite"
KeikoS smiles
Colega agrees.
Gregor grins at KeikoS.
Colega says, "Okay, already I want to know what "the school setting"
means."
Mehitabel [to KeikoS]: Where are you in NM?
Colega says, "Because that is changing rapidly."
farkas [Guest] says, "I have a big problem with this as a teacher,
because online students seem to require much more timeconsuming feedback
than f2f students - and I just dont have the time"
KeikoS [to Mehitabel]: albuquerque, I spelled it right!
Mehitabel says, "It takes longer to type."
Colega says, "Time to get out the peer teaching methods!"
Colega says, "Most students can teach each other quite a bit."
farkas [Guest] says, "longer than flashing a quick smile, sure"
archy once tried to teaech a peer, but it turned out to be a doc
Colega says, "One gets good at grammar, another gets good a vocabulary,
a third is good at pronunciation etc."
Gregor nods to farkas. "Especially in schools whose crazy administrators
are looking to technology to lower costs.... they start pumping up the
class sizes, when they ought to do the opposite."
Mehitabel agrees with Colega.
KeikoS ews to Gregor's comment
SarahS says, "connection to the arts works - novels, poems, film
in the language"
farkas [Guest] agrees emphatically with regor
Colega says, "Many teachers, for reasons intrinsic and extrinsic,
don't want to give up that much control over what gets put into the head
of the student. They still subscribe to the banking method of teaching
(like depositing money in a bank for later withdrawal - Paolo Freire)."
archy says, "but it lowers cost to them, the teachers don't make
more money, and only the students are really shortchanged"
KeikoS grins to Colega
SarahS says, "cartoons are great for accessibility and also for
cultural nuances"
Colega says, "It's hard for teachers to consider increasing the
peer teaching in the class."
Gregor says, "We did a series of pilots of our online business
English classes at the Econ Institute, and in each round, we slashed the
amount of "content" we tried to get through and became more and more concerned
abotu class sizes... "
Mehitabel says, "Where I work they are thinking of online classes
and it is only because we are short of classroom space."
archy says, "which somehow should *not* be a surprise"
Colega says, "Same thing happened at Syracuse Language --- people
wanted less content, but more fun!"
SarahS says, "good grief!"
Gregor says, "...because our experience (and the feedback from
the students) indicated that what was of value was the teacher/student
interaction, more than the instructional content."
farkas [Guest] says, "Colega, the students I'm dealing with don't
like it either - more traditional concept of teachers' roles"
KeikoS huhs to Gregor
Colega [to farkas [Guest]]: They don't like peer teaching?
farkas [Guest] says, "Nuh"
KeikoS huhs again
Gregor [to Colega]: My students generally didn't like it either.
They thought they were being ripped off... they paid for a teacher, dammit,
not for their classmate to teach them.
KeikoS says, "Sure that makes sense, too"
archy says, "even in non language classes, smaller classes are
better, and interaction is what gets the ball rolling"
farkas [Guest] says, "they have to be dragged into it f2f, and
online it is _really_ difficult to get it started"
Colega found that ESL classes she taught - heavily Asian
- expressed this, expected a lot of teacher control. But the Spanish
classes of USA students enjoyed it.
Mehitabel [to farkas [Guest]]: Dragged into whta?
Colega says, "The time in the beautiful lake country around Syracuse
is now 9:05 p.m. on Wednesday, 01/03/01"
archy [to Colega]: another one of them cultural things?
farkas [Guest] says, "peer teaching, Mehitable"
Mehitabel nods.
Colega says, "Oh my, I have to run! I've left my son out
in the boonies with a BMW mechanic, tearing apart an engine. Time to pick
him up."
archy says, "ciao colega"
Colega says, "I look forward to more of this tomorrow! "
KeikoS [to Colega]: nice to meet you.. hope to see you around
Gregor hugs Colega. "Tell Scott hi. Talk to you tomorrow."
SarahS waves goodbye to all
Mehitabel says, "Bye, Colega."
Mehitabel hugs Colega.
Miao [to farkas [Guest]]: Peer teaching about what? I am not quite
sure if the content will matter.
archy hugs colega
Colega hugs all around and goes dashing out the door.
Miao waves at Colega.
farkas [Guest] waves bye bye
Colega goes home.
SarahS has disconnected.
archy is sure content matters
Gregor [to Miao]: Hi! I didn't see you come in!!
Gregor laughs.
Miao grins at Gregor.
archy says, "among other things, you can't do it if the students
don't know the subject"
Gregor says, "I suppose we need to wrap this up."
archy hands greg some saran wrap (tm)
Gregor puts Transparency No.10 on the stage.
On the screen you see...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A REMINDER...
Please note! Our sessions are always logged.
By participating, you give permission
to Greg Younger to allow
access to the transcripts for research purposes
at his discretion.
Before using any part of our logs for research
or publication, please
obtain the
permission of Greg Younger at greg@dyvic.com
For a transcript, please see our web page:
http://www.dyvic.com/~greg/netmoo/
Contact Greg Younger to suggest future topics!
****** Thanks for participating! ******
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
KeikoS grins to saran wrap
KeikoS bows to Greg -- do you have a few minutes to chat?
Smoody thanks Gregor for leading the discussion
Mehitabel [to Gregor]: Thanks.
KeikoS says, "()()()()"
Gregor puts the Saran Wrap (tm) on the LCD panel and pours a little
oil and colored water on it. He puts some Grateful Dead on the MP3 player
and grooves out.
Miao bows at Gregor.
farkas [Guest] says, "yes, thank you Gregor"
Gregor [to KeikoS]: Just a few... got a hungry family here waiting
for me for dinner.
archy says, "wooowwwwww"
KeikoS says, "Thanks Greg. I will try to get up early tomorrow...
no promise"
Miao should do that, too.
|----------------[Gregor slaps some spam on the screen]----------------|
NETEACH MOO Session 22-B
(Thursday, Jan 4, 10 AM US EST, 3:00 PM GMT, 11 PM Tokyo)
(NOTE: That's *FRIDAY* [sort of] in Australia)
|---------------------[Gregor wipes off his hands]---------------------|
KeikoS [to Gregor]: OK. We will talk later
archy does promise ... not to be here that early
Gregor [to KeikoS]: Want to make a quick announcement of your session
at tappedin?
KeikoS says, "Oh, May I?"
Gregor says, "please do!"
farkas [Guest] says, "thanks everyone, bye"
KeikoS says, "I am having a party at TAPPED IN. http://www.tappedin.org"
archy puts his anntennae in a 'v' and says 'you're not gonna have
archy to kick around anymore'
KeikoS says, "tell the live help that you are looking for a party."
Gregor [to farkas [Guest]]: Thanks! The log of this conversation
will be up on the website by tomorrow.
farkas [Guest] has disconnected.
A campus caretaker arrives, and escorts farkas [Guest] to bed.
The housekeeper arrives to cart SarahS off to bed.
KeikoS says, "tomorrow night and Friday morning in US."
archy is afraid this reference is lost on the young'ns in the crowd
Gregor says, "tappedin is a MOO with its own web-based client...
kind of an interesting interface."
KeikoS says, "That is OK."
KeikoS says, "I think people know if they know."
Miao nods.
archy says, "does one need java?"
Miao is checking the page now.
KeikoS says, "YOu could connect text only MOO."
KeikoS says, "Go to the web site and look for connect info"
Miao [to KeikoS]: Not enCore, eh?
Mehitabel says, "DOes it use enCore?"
Gregor nods to archy. "TAPestry 3.0 is a new Java interface to
TAPPED IN that combines the clickable graphics area and the chat area into
one window"
KeikoS says, "It is called TAPestry. I think it is in house"
KeikoS bows again to Gregor
Gregor bows to KeikoS.
This page is maintained by Gregor
(Greg Younger, NETEACH-L MOO-Master).
Please send comments to Greg@Dyvic.com.