NETEACH Nook
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Your typical classroom. It's beginning to feel a bit more lived in, and
someone managed to put up at least one nice decoration: a world map with push
pins showing where NETEACHers have connected from. So far, there are pins in
Japan, Korea, Hong Kong, Australia, Greece, UK, Brazil, Israel, Canada, France,
and all over the US.
You see Teacher's Desk, Big Table, Bulletin Board, Beanbags, Fireside
Bearskin, Kitchen Table, and Wading Pool.
You see Mehitabel, Truna, thinking, and Gregor standing about.
You see LCD Panel.
Obvious exits: out
Gregor decides to go ahead and get official.
Gregor puts a transparency on the screen...
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Welcome to NETEACH-L's MOO discussion sessions!
(with much appreciation to schMOOze University
and its fine players, programmers, and wizards!)
Please note! Our sessions are always logged.
By participating, you give permission to Greg Younger to allow
access to the transcripts for research purposes at his discretion.
Before using any part of our logs for research or publication, please
obtain the permission of Greg Younger at youngerg@colorado.edu
For a transcript, please see our web page:
http://spot.colorado.edu/~youngerg/netmoo.html
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gregor says, "We managed to have a good discussion last week despite low
attendence.... I bet we can get into some good detail with only the four of
us talking today."
Gregor puts a transparency on the screen...
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*** Juggling modals and modems: Technical training in ESL classes ***
We are finding ourselves in the role of Computer Instructor more and more
as our curricula begin to include more tech-based activities, especially
in programs with an academic preparation focus. This seems to necessitate
a balancing act as we try to squeeze these mechanical skills in with the
language topics we must cover. How do we achieve this balance? What
preparation is necessary to ensure that our students get the best training
in both English and computer use?
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Truna nods, this is becoming a real problem for her!
Gregor [to Truna]: How so? Are you having balance problems?
Mehitabel says, "One way is to not try to squeeze them in. Have the computer
skills as a separate course."
thinking likes integrating things
Truna says, "It's NOT the language learners, they're fine - they tend to take
it all in their sride, it's the teachers learning to teach!"
Mehitabel says, "Yes, I can understand that."
thinking [to Truna]: what problems do you run into?
Truna says, "Theree is a certain 'desparation' amongst some of my teachers -
not to be left behind I think"
Gregor [to Truna]: learning to teach in general, or learning to teach tech?
thinking [to Truna]: left behind in what?
Truna says, "They're Masters students taking modules in Technology in
Education ...but they NEED to learn basic computer skills .."
thinking [to Truna]: ah so they are taking computer skills with no basics?
Gregor says, "So one of the problems is undertrained teachers?"
Truna says, "..but the teaching parameters are getting left behind in the
struggle to stay on top of the 'new literacy'. I worry"
Truna [to Gregor]: Yes, I think that it is.....the other teachers I work with
don't care whether or not they understand the tech, they just abuse it gaily
in the classroom!
Gregor nods. "And these teachers-in-training are the best hope for getting
tech used in appropriate ways in the language classroom... if they're not
getting the training THEY need ahead of time, that's a huge problem!"
Gregor says, "I know in the program where I did my masters work, there is still
not a CALL class offered to TESL/TEFL students.... I get asked to come back
to do random workshops, and that's the extent of it!"
Truna says, "I think my main worry is that they missing some basic training in
TEACHING.... and courses are not taking this into account"
Gregor [to Mehitabel]: You mentioned last week that most ESL teachers you work
with simply don't use computers... did I understand you correctly?
Truna wonders if these courses in the US suffer the same problems as ones in
Oz....not eno' students and people taking them BEFORE they start to teach?
Mehitabel nods.
Mehitabel says, "And where I work doesn't really care."
Gregor [to Mehitabel]: I think that's really OK, actually.. at least computers
are not being abused, pedagogically speaking! ;o)
thinking now has 505 teachers who all want training now!
thinking says, "I am being overworked actually."
Mehitabel says, "Well, yes and no."
thinking says, "very positive."
Truna says, "505! And are they giving you the facilities?"
Mehitabel says, "Teachers are assigned to computer labs, but given no
training."
thinking says, "well we start small. I am running a staff development project
called each one teach one."
Truna [to Mehitabel]: Don't they ask for the trainig? Can't they get it?
thinking says, "I train one teacher in a skill and they are responsible to
train another."
thinking says, "I am not sure if it will work or not."
Gregor says, "If I can interrupt for a sec... this is a good direction to discuss,
but not quite on-topic..."
Mehitabel says, "there is no formal way to get training. They do whatever they
want in the labs."
thinking awaits gregor to move us back to the topic
Gregor says, "The four of us are using computers in our language teaching, right?
How do we keep the balance of tech/language coverage so that our curriculum
goals are met?"
Truna is being distracted by students down under - sorry BRB
thinking [to Gregor]: why don't you go first?
Mehitabel says, "to be honest, I don't use computers in my language
teaching."
Gregor [to thinking]: Well, mostly I teach reading/writing....
Mehitabel says, "because of the problem we are here to discuss ... our course
are only 8 weeks long. there is no time."
Gregor says, "And I insist on word-processed papers, firstly, and for the last
year, I introduce email as well, all in VERY tight time constraints."
thinking says, "I don't have a problem with integration. I use the computers
when needed. I have a few in my classroom."
Truna is back :)
thinking says, "I don't have email access right now but hopefully will get web
access soon."
Gregor says, "I have 2 days per week in the lab, and my term is 20 days long. I
must be totally efficient."
Mehitabel says, "I also insist on word processed papers."
Gregor [to Mehitabel]: What about stu's who haven't used the computer before?
thinking teaches non academic stuff so has little stress about time limits.
Truna says, "there is the fact that any learners going on to study MUST be
able to word process.. this is one skill that involves language in its nature
and is necessary for Uni and work..?"
Mehitabel says, "I teach them on my own time, and ask other students to help
them."
Truna [to Mehitabel]: Why not use the timetabled Lab slot??
thinking says, "however in our academic section the teachers are extremely
resistant."
Mehitabel says, "Because they are expected to do writing there."
Truna is getting confused - don't the academic section trian in assignment
writing too?
Mehitabel is confused with 'academic section'.
Gregor says, "I've created quite a few editing exercises, stored in our server,
which students copy to their own disks and complete in pairs. In one session,
I can have them fairly comfortable with opening Word, navigating the drives
and directories to find and copy the file, saving, editing (moving the cursor
around, cutting and pasting, etc) spellchecking, and some formatting
commands. It all gets further reinforced in subsequent lab days."
Mehitabel [to Gregor]: Do they do it on their own time?
Truna thinks she has the confusion now - The crucial question re Word
Processing is whether or not it is expected as a skill in University or
vocational training - this is certainly the case in Australia
Gregor says, "No, they do it during our lab time. In pairs....."
Gregor says, "Each at his/her own computer, side by side..."
Mehitabel nods.
Gregor says, "And if the exercises are working the way they are supposed to, they
are "doing" english and learning the computer skills as a side effect."
Gregor says, "But since I started trying to do email too, well, time seems to be
slipping through my fingers in reading/writing class."
Mehitabel says, "My problem is I teach the higher levels. I think the students
should be introduced to WP skills in the lower levels."
Gregor says, "The last couple terms email has really gotten the short end of the
stick."
Mehitabel says, "That is why I gave up on it entirely."
Gregor nods to Mehi. "I absolutely agree. I teach mostly low-intermediate
classes... 3000-level.
Truna smiles at thinking and wonders if what Gregor is doing with his classes
doesn't exemplify the worries she has about students fussing over the tech
BEFORE they are competant teachers...she reckons a good teacher can teach
with anything!
Mehitabel [to Truna]: Greg teaches NNSs, not EFL teachers.
Truna looks back at her scribble and hopes ol Grefgor realises she means hes
the good teacher !! eek
Gregor [to Truna]: I think it does. We now are finally offering an "Intro to
Internet" class, and I am thinking of maybe ditching email in my writing
class. Maybe... then again, I hate to lose the opportunities offered by
email!
Gregor laughs. "I got it, Truna. ;o)"
thinking thinks writing is ideal for using email. Why do you have problems
integrating it Gregor?
Truna says, "But - unless you have computer skills classes for the those who
are studying the tech itself, isn't that the delight of the technology - The
opportunity it gives the students to learn lang and the opportunity it gives
teachers to widen their scope with those students?"
Gregor says, "We already have a computer placement test, due to our content
classes and ESP focus. We're thinking of making some sort of computer
training a requirement early on. This may take some of the pressure off me in
my writing classes."
Gregor [to thinking]: The problem is simply TIME. Our classes are only 4 weeks!
thinking says, "yikes that is too short to learn anything..."
Mehitabel says, "That is what I see as the solution. Train them once, early
on."
Truna nods at Mehi
Mehitabel says, "Mine are 8 weeks."
thinking says, "yikes short as well..."
thinking says, "our semesters are traditional and so I have lots of time."
Truna wonders if the others have 'competancy systems' in place where tech
literacy is equated with written literacy?
Mehitabel says, "My program is non-degree."
Gregor nods sadly. "Our short terms are the bane of our teacherly existence,
but according to our admin, a crucial selling point."
Mehitabel says, "that was why ours are short too -- $$$$."
Truna says, "Keeps the cash rolling in!"
thinking is not sure she could teach anything that quickly....
Mehitabel says, "er, is."
thinking moves slow
Gregor says, "We have to have highly flexible entry points to accomodate our
exeedingly international student base."
thinking says, "maybe time is the problem then."
thinking says, "maybe the 4/8 week term is not condusive to teaching
technology."
Mehitabel says, "our teachers like the 8 week terms too, as it allows them to
work at more other places."
Gregor says, "We've made some of our classes run over two terms as a response...
my classes, for example, have A and B sections. But I don't necessarily get
the same group of students two terms in a row...they get sccrambled around."
thinking says, "I think a general computer literacy class as a prerequisite to
writing classes might work then."
Truna [to thinking]: I don't hink its the technologu thinking, I think its
that short terms are not condusive to teaching detailed skills....
thinking says, "so that students would come into your classes literate."
Mehitabel says, "or any type of in depth project."
thinking says, "agrees with truna."
Gregor [to thinking]: I think that would solve a lot of my problems. I'll even
teach the computer classes, gladly!
Truna says, "no fals beginners!!"
thinking says, "to gregor does the admin not think it important"
Mehitabel [to Gregor]: I am teaching one this term and using your curriculum
as a guide.
Mehitabel says, "That is, in the fall."
Gregor [to thinking]: The admin definitely thinks computer literacy is
important. Our situation is incredibly difficult, though... we are really
quite amazing, if I do say so... we routinely do the impossible!
Gregor droops. "But I'm tired, so tired..."
Gregor chuckles.
Truna says, "This business of screen leteracy' is getting more and more
important - Won't the administrators catch on soon, after all ther's dollars
in it!"
thinking lets gregor sniff a little of her wonder wake up herbal mist.
Truna wonders if thinkings herbal mist will help her typing Iliteracy
thinking [to Gregor]: what makes the situation so difficult?
Gregor [to Truna]: They're getting the picture. We taught "Computer-mediated
communication" last term for the first time... this term, we had to ofer FIVE
sections of it!
Truna says, "that's why I wondered about competancy scales - Our Migrant
Education programs have just introduced an enourmous one which expects techno
literacy as well "
Gregor [to thinking]: In a nutshell, we have grad-level econ, biz,
accounting,M&O, stats, and ESL all under one roof...
Truna says, "blimey, what a cocktail"
Mehitabel [to Gregor]: Are your students ESL?
Gregor [to thinking]: We and our students drive ourselves into the ground to
cover everything.
Mehitabel says, "I think all of us are in different kind of programs."
Gregor nods to Mehi.
you notice a door appear where none was before. somehow it matches the decor
perfectly
archy has arrived.
thinking agrees with Mehi
Mehitabel says, "Degree on non-degree?"
archy wabves
Gregor says, "Yeah, this school is one-of-a-kind."
thinking waves to archy
Mehitabel says, "Hi, archy."
Truna agrees with mehi but sees some similarities: ie Admin slow to catch on,
mean with funding...
Mehitabel [to Truna]: we are self-funding.
Truna [to archy]: Hey! Greetings, long time no see!
archy says, "hi truna!"
Gregor says, "They go to grad school after they finish our program. Some of our
credits transfer, some don't, but the students have at least had the econ
classes once with us as "practice" before having to take it for a grade
later..."
Truna [to Mehitabel]: Do you mean the ESl dept or the institute?
Mehitabel says, "archy teaches intro to computers."
Gregor says, "Howdy, archy!"
thinking says, "it seems to me that what we need to do is brainstorm some
necessary parameters that should be in very program to include technology
effectively..."
Mehitabel says, "The institute I am in."
archy notes that self funding implies rather minimal funding
Truna groans in deep sympathy and notes that Mehi then has worked wonders!
Mehitabel [to archy]: How many of your students can wp when they get to you?
Gregor says, "We're private, non-profit, and self-supporting too."
archy giggles. he is happy to finally be getting equal billing!
archy [to Mehitabel]: over 1/2
Mehitabel says, "archy teaches degree students, many of which are NNSs."
thinking [to archy]: are you noticing an increase in their ability over the
years?
archy says, "teaching english accross the curriculum is old hat. teaching comp
sci accross the curriculum, there is an idea!"
Gregor [to archy]: What a great way to put it!
Truna [to archy]: It's kinda happening.
Gregor says, "That's it exactly."
archy [to thinking]: sure. 5 years ago vertually none had used a word
processotr
thinking says, "exactly it is what we need more people to do."
thinking says, "but I would take out the sci part and say computer literacy or
use or something."
archy thinks about that ... hmmm ... he speaks english. anyone got an e.s.l.
job for him?
archy nods to thinking
archy says, "and then, my job isn't as threatened"
Gregor says, "So did the early "writing across the curric" pioneers, in science
class, for example, have these same issues? How to balance the need to cover
the science topics while getting the writing skills in, and wondering if they
were qualified?"
thinking says, "to gregor not sure as I have never been around them."
Gregor like totally has an epiphany.
Truna [to Gregor]: I remember the science students when I was at Uni had to
take basic English courses....it wasn't integrated
Gregor [to Truna]: Yes, hon, but yer old. ;o)
thinking [to Gregor]: do you teach economics?
Gregor says, "I'm talking about a slightly later generation."
Truna growls a bit dangerously....
Gregor [to thinking]: Nope, ESL. And now computers.
Mehitabel says, "That idea is about 10 years old, I think."
thinking says, "that idea is even newer than when I went to school."
archy taught eglish through c.s. (he co-taught with an english prof) and did
worry about that a bit, but not too much
thinking says, "has not been in school since 1981 officially."
Truna says, "But the expectations of language levels for my learners going in
to science subjects is still lower than that for those going in to arts..."
Gregor says, "We need to get some k-12ers to come to our MOO sessions!"
Truna [to Gregor]: Oh yes, teach them the skills atschool!
Mehitabel [to Gregor]: I agree.
Gregor says, "I've done a little research about this as it relates to economics
programs. There are some econ profs who are highly concerned about the crappy
writing their students turn out... a terrible professional liability in that
field, where writing is what they DO..."
thinking says, "I taught with high school subjects teachers to help them
integrate technology and projects into their curriculum. I worked with
economics and writing teachers."
Gregor says, "There are a great number of econ profs, however, who are convinced
that A) it's not their job to teach writing, and B), students will pick it up
by osmosis, by reading the right journals and copying the style."
thinking says, "but we had 6 weeks just for the project we did and then 4
weeks earlier to develop computer skills."
Truna says, "and other profs too! It seems a bit unfair doesn't it - you have
to acheive this style to pass but I won't show you how!"
Gregor [to Truna]: Get this... .they say "We already have too much to cover.
there's no time for us to teach writing!!!!!!!"
Mehitabel says, "the 'writing across the curc', I thought was to improve
writing, not teach it."
thinking wonders if you can teach a skill like writing.
archy notes that his students don't write acceptably either
Mehitabel says, "that should be learned in high school."
Gregor [to Mehitabel]: But aren't those subject teachers expected to evaluate
the writing of their studentrs?
thinking says, "writing comes with practice."
Gregor [to Mehitabel]: THat's what my econ prof friends say.
Gregor says, "To almost-quote one, "In graduate school, writing instruction is a
remedial activity.""
thinking says, "and practice takes time."
Truna sighs
archy says, "but i don't try to teach writing, i try to use it as a tool to
assess their knowledge. if they can't write, they do poorly on those tasks"
Truna says, "But if there is no initial training (either writing or Tech) How
can it be remedial?!"
archy thinks that a jr or sr in college should be able to write a 5 page
'research' paper
Gregor [to Truna]: It's considered a prerequisite skill.
Mehitabel calls for the K-12 teachers again.
archy says, "if they can't, they should not have made it to jr status."
Gregor dreams, "In an ideal world..."
thinking says, "CA has a writing proficiency test that one must pass to go on
to Jr level."
Mehitabel says, "But we are getting off the topic."
Truna returns from the phone sorry...wh'appen?
archy says, "but even in a less than ideal world...what am i to do in, say, my
non-major intro class, where i want a paper that too many of them can't seem
to write?"
Gregor [to Mehitabel]: We're allowed now.. time's up! :o)
Mehitabel says, "Computer skills are just not on the same level as writing
skills."
Gregor [to Mehitabel]: You mean, computer skills should be much easier to
teach?
archy says, "but they *are*"
archy says, "they are just as nessesary for communication these days"
thinking awaits an interesting archy mehi debate......
Mehitabel says, "Learning to wp taks very little time; writing is another
story."
Mehitabel says, "It takes years to learn. That is why it is started in
elementary school."
Gregor says, "Same level of importance, unequal difficulty."
archy says, "but comp literacy is not just w.p., there are other issues
(perhaps each not a big deal, but all together...)"
Truna says, "Within these competancy slaces we are suffering, learning to use
the keyboard is equated with being able to write your name in English.."
thinking likes the way gregor descibes it.
archy gets behind gregor too
Mehitabel [to archy]: But they are not cognitive skills in the way
reading/writing are.
then archy kneels down, and someone pushes gregor
Gregor, shoked by Mehi's brazen attitude, hides behind Truna.
Truna knows Gregor is in for a hiding!
Mehitabel says, "What did I say?"
Gregor [to Mehitabel]: Nothing bad... I'm just playing. I thought archy might
throw something.
archy thinks he disagrees
Mehitabel says, "Not at me he wouldn't."
Truna says, "I wonder actually if computer literacy does represent a cognitve
aspect....I watch some attempting to come to grips with it all and they are -
well blind..!"
Gregor says, "So ideally, then, in summary, EVERYTHING should be a prerequisite.
Computer skills before EAP writing classes, writing skill before university
study.......?"
archy says, "writing is 'cognitive' in the sense it helps clarify one's
thoughts, helps organise and put them into a logical order?"
Mehitabel nods.
thinking says, "hi I guess I am back."
Truna says, "so, if you can cope with concepts of logical order, then computer
use is a, what, addition? facet?"
archy says, "then i must disagree. every aspect of computer literacy requires
a bit of logic and cognative processing"
thinking agrees with archy on that point.
Mehitabel [to archy]: Yes, of course, but not to the same degree as writing.
archy says, "why?"
Mehitabel [to archy]: Just look at all the lovely wp'ed papers that say
nothing.
Truna is vaguely recalling some work on K12 literacy using computers for
writing.. and hmm, possibly something about the use of the cc changing the
nature of their work?
archy thinks that if one has trouble, say, with order, one will have a hell of
a time doing anything with a computer
Truna says, "Oh dear!"
Gregor's not sure what to think on this. "I learned to use computers pretty
ummm..."organically." Never took a class; just pieced together the skills by
experimenting and asking questions at the right times. My understanding of
the way computers work ( more importantly, "how to work computers") is
definitely NOT just a collection of learned behaviors. It's a cognitive thang."
archy notes that he has only taken two 'co,puter' classes...he learned most of
it by teaching the subjects.
Mehitabel says, "Then can writing be learned the same way?"
Gregor . o O ( Maybe it's my macintosh frame of mind! )
Truna truna wants to be a nuisance and wonders if driving is cognitive -
that's her students latest analogy for learning ccs
archy [to Gregor]: no...the mac only hiders your understanding
Gregor giggles.
archy says, "hinders"
Truna liked 'hiders'
Gregor [to Mehitabel]: Can it? By reading extensively and asking experienced
writers?
Gregor [to archy]: I'm bi-platformal. I live in a DOS-Windoze world.
thinking says, " I live in a MAC/DOS/Windows world."
Gregor corrects himself then. "Tri-platformal. I use a mac myself but teach
and work with windows and dos."
Truna squeeks and looks at the clock! ah, how time flies when you're having
fun!
archy can't count high enough to count his platformness. it is almost as high
as mehi's
Gregor nods. "Here's the closing formality...
Gregor puts a transparency on the screen...
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A REMINDER...
Please note! Our sessions are always logged.
By participating, you give permission to Greg Younger to allow
access to the transcripts for research purposes at his discretion.
Before using any part of our logs for research or publication, please
obtain the permission of Greg Younger at youngerg@colorado.edu
For a transcript, please see our web page:
http://spot.colorado.edu/~youngerg/netmoo.html
****** Thanks for participating! ******
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Truna says, "I must jive, large hugs all round, this one has been dead good!"
archy hopes they pour water on a fire
Mehitabel says, "Conclusion: these skills must be started young/lower levels?"
Mehitabel says, "And they must be required."
archy says, "they shoud, i think, be started as early as practical, just like
everything else"
thinking says, "they need to be as much a part of the curriculum as reading
and writing is Ihtink."
Gregor says, "Required, started early, AND continued in the curriculum for
reinforcement."
Gregor says, "Ciao, all!"
Please send comments to youngerg@spot.colorado.edu.